fan-translated games on the database

[kurzih]

I would like to discuss about fan-translated entries and metadata on the database and I think we would in the end require @Jason Carr's comment for this specific guideline confirmation.

Right now it looks like fan-made images for fan-translation are being added to the database to the entries with the actual games that were released for example exclusively in Japan. Mostly for some consoles and handhelds. I suggest that these entries would be separate entries, for example the Japan-only game "Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier Exceed" would have a separate entry like "Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier Exceed (fan-translated)" or some other way to distinguish them, sometimes the actual game title is also fully (fan-)translated so that wouldn't pose a duplicate name problem.

You could probably argue that "why don't you use the region tags to choose which media you want to either original or fan-made?".

Some of the benefits for having separate entries:

- by definition a fan-translation is a ROM-Hack, and we have a Gametype for that. Only one of those can be chosen per entry.
- No one will get a mixed-mash of media images of authentic and fan-made images. I personally prefer to have my games the way they were originally released - for example no western style (EUR/NA) logo, 3D box or screenshots for a Japanese game.
- No one will need to say "Deleting this image, because this game wasn't released outside the region of xxxxx" and I've seen that happen with SNES for example.
- People will know better which games have been fan-translated. In some cases there is no proper way of knowing where the game was *only* originally released if it has regional images from many countries or if a fan-translation is available.
- The overview can be different (but always in English), perhaps even the release or publisher fields could reflect the fan-translation data from https://www.romhacking.net/translations/ for example (yeah, even that website is called romhacking - note: it does NOT contain commercial roms, only patches) .

Don't get me wrong I really do appreciate fan-translation and the huge work behind them; I do have them (separately) in my local collection. I'm more than happy to be able to fully play text-heavy games in English for Japan-only games for example. But I also prefer to have authentic/original images and metadata for the entries (call it nostalgia or whatever) that were originally made at their time and not having translated fanmade images (like EUR/US style) for covers 3D boxes etc. when they originally never existed. And in the other hand I like to have the separated fan-translated entries with their (fan-made) localized images/screenshots & videos instead of the original language. It wouldn't surprise me if some of you might feel the same.

So what do you think? Keeping them apart or just keep'em together using the regions tags we have and hope that there's no missing images or tags for the original entry to make sure there's no mixing up? Everyone has their own taste and reasons. This is just a suggestion, but in the end I would appreciate a proper guideline for this (and then the clarification for database rule #3 - if a translation rom-hack is OK to be a separate entry or not), thank you!

Edited January 8, 2021 by kurzih

[Fabricio]

In my opinion, i disagree, it's just my opinion about that.

I think these games are the same, just another language/region, i know these games are some kind of Rom Hacks, cause are not oficial translated, but are the same games of the official language.

I like to have the original release of a game like you, but i think the database will be too much bigger if we add a separate entry for translated games. Platform like Wonderswan have all your games in a Japanese language, if we add a translated version of all games, we will double de database with duplicated games.

And to finish, about the deleted images with another language. Not all moderators read the forum topics, so, someday, one moderator will try to delete this fan-translated games, and a lot of them will be deleted, just like the Commodore 64 Platform, a lot of games needs a "publisher" in your name, cause are use the same names, but, some moderators try to remove this without read the topic about that.

[kurzih]

 

38 minutes ago, Fabricio said:

I like to have the original release of a game like you, but i think the database will be too much bigger if we add a separate entry for translated games. Platform like Wonderswan have all your games in a Japanese language, if we add a translated version of all games, we will double de database with duplicated games.

You have a valid point. And this is most likely the opinion that the majority shares. I guess Jason would prefer to keep the way things are with separation via regional tags and gametypes. But that will not remove the moderation/submitter's conflicts with media/metadata and will not make a full separation with official releases and fanmade patches/hacks from the same source (game) - they would still be mixed among each other.

But if we would think another way around that, how would it sound if those separate entries would actually be a separate (sub)platform entity - we have that kind of things with ARCADE games for example - the same games in the Arcade Platform and some of those games are duplicated in Sega System 1/2/3, Sega Naomi etc. and they use sub-platform specific media files. Using the same thinking, one portion would be exclusively for authentic, original then-released games and the other one would have rom hacks, translations, homebrew etc. I have to say there are a LOT of homebrew and hacks (how many Pokémon games are there?? xD) in the database and the official commercial releases do not really stand out compared to them. Could we split those two into separate gamelists in the database? It doesn't mean your local database would need to be any different, it would only give you more choice and also there could be more and different images to be uploaded - just like we see in those Arcade Sub-platforms. Fanart makers would probably have more to contribute as well.

To be honest the database structure has been untouched (at least looking from the outside) for a long time and an overhaul wouldn't be a bad idea. There are a few hiccups in need of a fix (empty, duplicate platforms, inconstantly named platforms) and a few bugs here and there (duplicate entry bug, alternative name comment field bug). It might be that touching the database is a more complex thing than we'd know. At this point I would have expected more missing platforms added to the database, there is some fully emulated systems that are not there yet. Of course I understand that the focus is with the Launchbox/BigBox App's development, not the database.
 

Edited January 8, 2021 by kurzih

[Freestate]

Duplicate entries? No way! The solution must be to add language available tags in database and the posibility to mark with official english or fantranslated english (for example) and prioritize the picked sorting name like we do with media.

But @Jason Carr I don´t know if it is because their personal motivation or related to some messy difficulties to deal with databases doesn´t seem to focus too much on database changes. Language availability in games is a well known and necesary proposal to deal with fantranslations or to pick only games that were officially released in your native language (really important in rpg or adventure games). Database needs more focus, moderators and contributors were always dealing with some issues or workarounds due to the lacking of some tags (fan tag in 3d boxes missing, reconstructed tag in carts) and that issue about languages and translations.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Freestate

[Chris Kant]

My assumption is, that we need every game only one time in the database but with the option to extend that one game by multiple versions like the different regions and or different hacks, language patches, version, betas, etc. plus every version can have the full information like a normal game in the database (release date, artwork etc). this might make handling the database with all its needs easier, from the maintaining perspective as well as for the user perspective.

[kurzih]

2 hours ago, Chris Kant said:

My assumption is, that we need every game only one time in the database but with the option to extend that one game by multiple versions like the different regions and or different hacks, language patches, version, betas, etc. plus every version can have the full information like a normal game in the database (release date, artwork etc). this might make handling the database with all its needs easier, from the maintaining perspective as well as for the user perspective.

Thinking of this, separation & additions (for more than just regions) by extension, instead of separate entries/sub-entries actually sounds very much like the new GUI updates that were made in the Launchbox App, which allows for more content to be handled in the Edit option. That approach could indeed work with the database and could be the most likely way to go. But as I've said before, my guess is that it looks to be much more complicated/time-consuming making changes in the database structural code (it also needs to work properly with the App, changes will be needed to be done there too) than we'd expect - not about the will of doing those changes. Probably some longer downtime would be needed too, lots of testing etc. And who knows if the database coding was made by someone not part of the team anymore. And we shouldn't forget that the To-Do-List from the last Poll isn't complete yet.

But those are just guesses, nothing to make any conclusions of. I'm sure Jason will clarify as soon as he can. Hopefully everyone is OK in the US with the LB team. Things look very critical there with the virus etc. All we can do now is patiently wait.

I appreciate everyone's input/feedback on this so far, thank you! Looks to be more than just a guideline discussion

Edited January 11, 2021 by kurzih

[Randy Morrow]

I am from North America and speak only English.  So I only have games that are in english or english translated.  Therefore I want all my artwork & videos in english so I dont see the Problem with someone puting translated artwork in and giving it a region tag of Na or even europe not sure people should not be deleting them and when I moderate i reject there deletion I even seen people delete taged fan art just find that stupid if you don't want it dont use it but why not give people the options what gives you the right to say what someone should use and by deleting them you are taking away option thats what the fan art tags are therefore.