Do you know what is an ROM HACK? Maybe not

[xevious1974]

Hi again,

I see that some mod are going to delete entries of SUBSET ROM, or rejecting them.

Well. Our DB accept ROM HACK. If we dont want HACK, we have to remove all from DB (SNES-NES-SMS-SMD and so on).

But if we accept them...we have to accept. You dont like these SUBSET...I am sorry, but there are people who likes them and work on them.

Maybe some of you ignore what is an rom hack. Here a simple review:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROM_hacking

And to be very clear, here what you should know:

"Once a hack is completed (or an incomplete version is deemed suitable for an interim release) it is released onto the Internet for others to play. The generally accepted way to do this is by making an unofficial patch (in IPS format or others) that can be applied to the unmodified ROM"

So, you find the SUBSET patch at this address:

https://github.com/RetroAchievements/RAPatches

Now:

Dot Hack Part 1 - Infection [Subset - Book of 1000]  PS2

Dot Hack Part 2 - Mutation [Subset - Book of 1000]  PS2

Devil May Cry 3 (USA) (Special Edition) [Subset - Bonus] PS2

Dirge of Cerberus - Final Fantasy VII Subset PS2

and so on ARE ALL HACKED ROM

it is not an Alternate version/name/family/gender or what. It is an existing game that has been modified by a patch, so it is an hacked rom.

Believe me, it is not so difficult.

Thank you 

[Kjetter]

I've been seeing these in the queue, and I am so confused about what this is. I understand that they are linked to achievements at RA... so these subsets or whatever, they are modified to trigger a separate set of achievements different to those linked to the unedited game? But functionally they are the same game, no actual changes has been made to the gameplay or graphics?

I've just been ignoring them in the queue, but I'd still like to understand.

[xevious1974]

Thank you a lot for your reply!
 

24 minutes ago, Kjetter said:

so these subsets or whatever, they are modified to trigger a separate set of achievements different to those linked to the unedited game?

Yes!

25 minutes ago, Kjetter said:

 But functionally they are the same game, no actual changes has been made to the gameplay or graphics?

I can understand what you mean, and you are right. You can read info here:

https://docs.retroachievements.org/Subsets/#what-are-subsets

What I mean, anyway, is that only if you hack that rom you can play the new RA. So, at the end, you are using an hacked rom. Not the official one.

If we enter the problem of "How much should be hacked a rom to be considered an Hacked rom"...we'll die before reaching a solution.

I apply a patch? Yes. ---> I hacked the rom.

And we have 2 problems:

-1)exchanging complete playlists. Try to dl my playlist and add them to your launchbox, subset may disappear because they have same entry of the original game if we dont separate them (someone has suggested to create a new RA platform for example @Jakatsu)

-2)If they are on the same entry, when I click on that game I can see only the achievements of the base rom and not the subset one. Ok, you can say it is not a great problem, but why I am using a feature that I cannot completely use? There are a lot of RA players and having a quite perfect UI that handle RA can help spread LB software.

 

But, if we speak in general of DB entries, what I cant understand is "DB has some space (HD) problem that cannot handle other entries? What is the problem adding a total of...100 roms (for all platform) for a feature we are using?" I cant understand that.

I thought I should speak about how registering them... I put ~HACK~ in front or [SUBSET] to the end...I was very surprised seeing that there was a problem adding the 7 hacked roms for Ps2...

 

Thank you very much for your reply, I like to understand and speak

[Kjetter]

So, does this mean that if, just for the sake of argument, 5 versions (subsets) of some 4gb PS2 game existed, and you wanted to have them all in your collection, then you'd have to store the full game five times for a total of 20gb? Or are these patches stackable, exchangeable, or anything like that? This question isn't really relevant to the database or anything, I'm just wondering.

But to briefly touch on what you said about "how much should be hacked". I see your point here, and I definitively don't have a neat answer for the entire question, nor any interest in trying to discuss it - as you said, that would take forever. But I don't think it's unfair to suggest that if you need a tertiary program/service in addition to console/emulator and game to even detect that a change has been made then for all intents and purposes no change has actually been made to the game. I mean, nobody has tried separating out all the old romdumps that changed data for emulation compatibility from the unaltered good dumps? They are technically hacked, and in very much the same sense as these subsets as far as I understand; the data that has been altered is inconsequential to the actual game.

And as an extension to that point, you also have all the cracked C64 games, I don't think they get thier own entries either - especially since in some cases those are the only archived versions available. But they often contain additional music, changes to the dataloading, additional menus and credits, integrated cheats, etc. All easily detectable with your eyes and ears, and clearly different than the official release.

But yeah, regardless of all of that, I don't think it's always sensible to judge everything on the same standard. Old romdumps and cracked C64 games not being separated from their "parent entry" clearly doesn't cause any issue, but - as you outlined - it does cause an issue for the subsets. So hopefully some practical solution can be found that everyone is happy with.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Kjetter

[Suhrvivor]

My take is that every rom hack should be judged separately, some hacks change the game so much that the result could be considered a new game, other hacks are so minor that it can still be considered the same game. I think that the achievementes hacks enter into the second category.

My concern is that when you import games it would grab the metadata of the wrong game instead of the one you want since they're named so similarly.

[xevious1974]

First of all, thank you for your replies!!

I am very happy to expand my own point of view

 

18 hours ago, Kjetter said:

So, does this mean that if, just for the sake of argument, 5 versions (subsets) of some 4gb PS2 game existed, and you wanted to have them all in your collection, then you'd have to store the full game five times for a total of 20gb? Or are these patches stackable, exchangeable, or anything like that? This question isn't really relevant to the database or anything, I'm just wondering.

You are tragically right! At this address https://retroachievements.org/gameList.php?c=12 you can find Ps1 games and you'll see 3 different SUBSET for Final Fantasy VII (sic)

 

18 hours ago, Kjetter said:

But to briefly touch on what you said about "how much should be hacked". I see your point here, and I definitively don't have a neat answer for the entire question, nor any interest in trying to discuss it - as you said, that would take forever. But I don't think it's unfair to suggest that if you need a tertiary program/service in addition to console/emulator and game to even detect that a change has been made then for all intents and purposes no change has actually been made to the game. I mean, nobody has tried separating out all the old romdumps that changed data for emulation compatibility from the unaltered good dumps? They are technically hacked, and in very much the same sense as these subsets as far as I understand; the data that has been altered is inconsequential to the actual game.

And as an extension to that point, you also have all the cracked C64 games, I don't think they get thier own entries either - especially since in some cases those are the only archived versions available. But they often contain additional music, changes to the dataloading, additional menus and credits, integrated cheats, etc. All easily detectable with your eyes and ears, and clearly different than the official release.

But yeah, regardless of all of that, I don't think it's always sensible to judge everything on the same standard. Old romdumps and cracked C64 games not being separated from their "parent entry" clearly doesn't cause any issue, but - as you outlined - it does cause an issue for the subsets. 

I totally agree with you. And I repeat what you are saying, for the subset it is a little different because it creates an issue, in xml and in the LB tab. It is not my wish to enter new data in the DB (I am a lazy, old man), it is to use in the best way the RA data. And I think that adding some entries (100, maybe 200 in the future) it'll not create a great problem.

18 hours ago, Kjetter said:

So hopefully some practical solution can be found that everyone is happy with.

I hope that. At the moment I am not able to think other solution than to insert new entries. I hope someone can find this agreeable or a better solution.

 

15 hours ago, Suhrvivor said:

My take is that every rom hack should be judged separately, some hacks change the game so much that the result could be considered a new game, other hacks are so minor that it can still be considered the same game. I think that the achievementes hacks enter into the second category.

No one can negate that RA patches are in the second category. But we are creating 2 different hack categories? I think it creates a very difficult way to sustain in the long period. Anyway, you cant negate that a patched rom is an hacked rom 🤣

15 hours ago, Suhrvivor said:

My concern is that when you import games it would grab the metadata of the wrong game instead of the one you want since they're named so similarly.

That is a problem, or maybe it is THE problem. And for RA feature is a good problem. So I was thinking that for some entries....it was not a great DB problem.

We have to think if we want to make RA feature to work how it deserve or in a bad way.

Obviously, anyone wishing to answer this question should put themselves in the shoes of those who use this feature a lot.

Thank you again for your time