Sapo Xule

[LonestarK]

Apparently different graphics, characters, and story is no longer enough to be considered different and thus warrant a separate entry.

My question is, now that you've started merging different games together, what's next?

Are you going to merge Decap Attack with Magical Hat no Buttobi Turbo Daibōken since they are just "retooled versions" as one adamant contributor has put it?

Are you going to merge every romhack with its base game?  Some romhacks have even less differences from their base game than the Sapo Xule games have with the games you've merged them with.  Aren't these just "retooled" versions?

Not only were the Sapo Xule games released in Brazil and Portugal, but the games you've merged them with were also released in Brazil and Portugal;  And now that you've merged them together, there's no way to differentiate these separate titles in these regions.  Is this the only time in gaming history where the "same game" as you put it is released twice in the same region for the same platform, except with "retooled" graphics and a different name?

How is "retooled" not the same as "different"?  Apparently we can merge "retooled" games together, so how is this not the same as merging "different" games together?

 

[OKTrashPanda]

It's precisely for things like this that I wish we had firmer guidelines. Hoping we get something a little clearer to base decisions off of.

[Kjetter]

Genuinely struggling to see any benefit of merging in cases like that. The sensible thing would be to have a parent/child system of some sort, but just merging them as the database is now only leaves more work for the end user in determining what dataset is correct. And in most cases you'd end up with a text summary that is entirely wrong.

And where is the line drawn? Resident Evil for PS1 has 3 releases (unrelated to region) which are essentially the same game with changes ranging from simple bug-fixes to dualshock support to a whole new soundtrack. I think many, if not most, people would say that these are just variations of the same game. These versions all have unique entries in the database.

On the other hand, there is a football game for the Neo Geo AES which saw a second worldwide release three years later under a new name, where the only actual change is rebranding the teams to align with the real life world cup. They play identical, yet I believe most people would consider them different games. They have separate entries in the database.

Without clear, accessible guidelines and a firm decision on how to solve it I can't imagine this leading to anything but an endless edit-war, and with the moderation system being as it is (awful, for the record) it's likely to go back and forth ad infinitum.

[Freestate]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:23 PM, LonestarK said:

Apparently different graphics, characters, and story is no longer enough to be considered different and thus warrant a separate entry.

My question is, now that you've started merging different games together, what's next?

Are you going to merge Decap Attack with Magical Hat no Buttobi Turbo Daibōken since they are just "retooled versions" as one adamant contributor has put it?

Are you going to merge every romhack with its base game?  Some romhacks have even less differences from their base game than the Sapo Xule games have with the games you've merged them with.  Aren't these just "retooled" versions?

Not only were the Sapo Xule games released in Brazil and Portugal, but the games you've merged them with were also released in Brazil and Portugal;  And now that you've merged them together, there's no way to differentiate these separate titles in these regions.  Is this the only time in gaming history where the "same game" as you put it is released twice in the same region for the same platform, except with "retooled" graphics and a different name?

How is "retooled" not the same as "different"?  Apparently we can merge "retooled" games together, so how is this not the same as merging "different" games together?

 

I'm freaked out that this story has generated so much quarrel when it was very clear that it was a common case of regional version. No, the xapo xule versions are neither complex rebuilds nor games based on, not hacks neither (tectoy had the official license rights of the original games an they simply made regional versions for their market). In all 3 games the only change is the sprite of the main character, the title and a simple title screen at most. It is something very common in regional adaptations, the European super protector for example is Contra III with cyborgs, Shatterhand from nes is the Japanese Solbrain with the robotic character changed by a Swarzenegger wannabe and more changes, Ranma ½ Chounai Gekitōhen was brutally mutilated in its edition USA as Street Combat changing all the characters, in short, there are many examples... and they have always been merged into a single entry. The example of decap attack is not valid, because there the changes are not only cosmetic, it is a game that has used the base or engine of the other but the gameplay and the levels are different and they keep their entries separate, it has not been approved to join them by that.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Freestate

[LonestarK]

I don't think it's as clear as you say that this is just a common regional version.  As mentioned, the unaltered base games were also released in these regions.  So I don't think your analogy to Contra or Shatterhand or the others is as applicable here.

Also, I have to refute that the only changes were a simple sprite swap for the main character.  In Sapo vs the Swamp Invaders, multiple character sprites are changed, not just the main, and there's even new weapons added (Sapo Xule's stinky shoes).  In Sapo SOS Polluted Lagoon, enemy sprites and powerup boosters have changed in addition to background palette changes and the player's ship sprite.

But mostly I'm really concerned for the implications this has on romhacks since those are the majority of adds that I make to the database.  I can think of at least a dozen romhacks for just Sonic 1 and 2, not to mention many more for popular mario series games where the only change to the game is that the main character that you play as has changed, and I can't conceive of anyone who wants a dozen different romhacks jumbled together.

[Freestate]

12 hours ago, LonestarK said:

I don't think it's as clear as you say that this is just a common regional version.  As mentioned, the unaltered base games were also released in these regions.  So I don't think your analogy to Contra or Shatterhand or the others is as applicable here.

Also, I have to refute that the only changes were a simple sprite swap for the main character.  In Sapo vs the Swamp Invaders, multiple character sprites are changed, not just the main, and there's even new weapons added (Sapo Xule's stinky shoes).  In Sapo SOS Polluted Lagoon, enemy sprites and powerup boosters have changed in addition to background palette changes and the player's ship sprite.

But mostly I'm really concerned for the implications this has on romhacks since those are the majority of adds that I make to the database.  I can think of at least a dozen romhacks for just Sonic 1 and 2, not to mention many more for popular mario series games where the only change to the game is that the main character that you play as has changed, and I can't conceive of anyone who wants a dozen different romhacks jumbled together.

Romhacks are not official. That one was a licensed release. It's crystal clear. And you're cherrypicking with sapo xulé, street combat has the full sprite sheet changed and shaterhand have one extra stage in one version (i don't remember if it is the same one.

[LonestarK]

And you're ignoring the fact that two different versions were officially released in the same region. 

I think we've both made our points.  Let's hear if anyone else wants to weigh in.  My reason for creating this thread is to help our moderators make a more informed decision on the changes we've seen ramrodded through the queue as of late.  And I hate to see that those change requests have escalated to threats written in game titles and overview entries.

Ultimately it's up to all of the moderators to draw the lines on what constitutes a significant enough difference to keep separate entries, and not the tirades of a few contributors going back and forth in an edit war.

[Freestate]

23 minutes ago, LonestarK said:

And you're ignoring the fact that two different versions were officially released in the same region. 

I think we've both made our points.  Let's hear if anyone else wants to weigh in.  My reason for creating this thread is to help our moderators make a more informed decision on the changes we've seen ramrodded through the queue as of late.  And I hate to see that those change requests have escalated to threats written in game titles and overview entries.

Ultimately it's up to all of the moderators to draw the lines on what constitutes a significant enough difference to keep separate entries, and not the tirades of a few contributors going back and forth in an edit war.

I see, the decisions that have been made over the years in dozens of similar entries are not illustrative enough because... potatoe. Frankly, seeing the obsessive insistence on re-uploading those games as independent entries, it is more than obvious that a system of reports to administrators and internal messaging would be needed. It is too common for there to be users who, due to ignorance or their own selfishness, upload what they want to the database. The argument that the xulé toad troll gave in his messages (and I don't look at anyone) is that it overlapped with the other installment... other games like super mario kart also have classic editions and the same thing can happen, if anyone don't want that art is as easy as erasing it and that's all.

Another day in the non adressed for years database wild madness...

[xevious1974]

14 hours ago, Freestate said:

upload what they want to the database.

I think we should start from here. What I have to upload? I play Retroachievements, I love it!
I need a separate entry for Ps2 NFSU Most Wanted DEMO. I need it. But I think that all people that play that game, need that entry.

DB also is missing the Subset Rom in ps2...I was going to upload them...Can I do it? Everyone that want to play RA...need a separated entry and need also that the name match with RA name.

So, we should merge or we should non-merge titles? Finding a line I think it is impossible. So, we need a change.

We should choice, for example when importing, if merge or non merge same title but different versions. Yes, I think that multiple entries is the right way.

[alissongamer]

On the issue of RA you don't need a separate entry, because if you look at this point then each region of the same game should have a separate entry. LaunchBox gives you the option to select the version you want to run of the same game, just choose the correct one for the RA.

[LonestarK]

2 hours ago, alissongamer said:

On the issue of RA you don't need a separate entry, because if you look at this point then each region of the same game should have a separate entry. LaunchBox gives you the option to select the version you want to run of the same game, just choose the correct one for the RA.

It allows you to select the version or the region?  Because with the merge, there are two versions for Brazil, and two versions for Europe (Portugal).

[alissongamer]

33 minutes ago, LonestarK said:

It allows you to select the version or the region?  Because with the merge, there are two versions for Brazil, and two versions for Europe (Portugal).

both

[BloodyThorn]

Just to clarify:

These Sega games should be classified under the same game.

I just want to know as I want to know if I should keep rejecting adding the new game, and rejecting deleting the alternative artwork (brazil) off the OG game.

[alissongamer]

I'm one of the database's moderators, and since no other moderators have spoken out and most of the time I'm seeing change requests, I'll accept it, so let's separate these versions as individual games for the time being, because I think the arguments make sense .
However, if other moderators speak out and decide that they should not be separated, then we will have to undo everything.

Sou um dos moderadores do database, e como nenhum outro moderador se pronunciou e na maioria das vezes está aparecendo pra mim as solicitações de alteração, eu vou aceitar, então vamos por enquanto separar essas versões como jogos individuais, pois acho que os argumentos fazem sentido.
Porém caso outros moderadores se pronunciem e decidam que não devem ser separados, aí teremos que desfazer tudo.

[Kjetter]

With multiple contradictory reports and deletion requests going on at once it's probably safest not to accept delete requests of any kind for entries related to this. Before you know it we'd be left without the info entirely, with both the merged data and the separate entry being wiped. Whenever the dust settles it would be nice to not have to retrieve everything again. Personally I'm taking a step back and hoping someone with some authority speaks up - hopefully before this spreading beyond the sega/brazil entries. I can think of at least a handful or two other games that could get swept up in this.

 

[BloodyThorn]

> probably safest not to accept delete requests of any kind for entries related to this

Thanks for the confirmation. Steering true.

[alissongamer]

19 minutes ago, Kjetter said:

With multiple contradictory reports and deletion requests going on at once it's probably safest not to accept delete requests of any kind for entries related to this. Before you know it we'd be left without the info entirely, with both the merged data and the separate entry being wiped. Whenever the dust settles it would be nice to not have to retrieve everything again. Personally I'm taking a step back and hoping someone with some authority speaks up - hopefully before this spreading beyond the sega/brazil entries. I can think of at least a handful or two other games that could get swept up in this.

 

Ok

[Kjetter]

Erh, just to be clear: I have no authority in this matter. The above is just my suggestion to keep things as neat and controlled as possible until things quiet down. I am happy if you guys agree that it's a sensible way to go about it, but I feel I need to stress that it's not up to me to dictate.

Regardless, I think the way the moderation system works means this will go back and forth for a while no matter what I or you do.

[LonestarK]

If you're unsure how to handle any change request, (not just those related to this Sapo Xule fiasco), rather than approve or reject, click the skip button and allow one of the other moderators to handle the request.

[BloodyThorn]

1 hour ago, LonestarK said:

If you're unsure how to handle any change request, (not just those related to this Sapo Xule fiasco), rather than approve or reject, click the skip button and allow one of the other moderators to handle the request.

Way ahead of you.