Sapo Xule

[Freestate]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:21 PM, BloodyThorn said:

Just to clarify:

These Sega games should be classified under the same game.

I just want to know as I want to know if I should keep rejecting adding the new game, and rejecting deleting the alternative artwork (brazil) off the OG game.

It's exactly the same name. The changes are just cosmetic. A few sprites. We don't separate probotector games and contra games and the changes are more extensive. The user that insists on vandalize the merged enrty and keep adding the sapo xulé entries must be banned because he don't care about. @faeran

[BloodyThorn]

13 hours ago, Freestate said:

It's exactly the same name. The changes are just cosmetic. A few sprites. We don't separate probotector games and contra games and the changes are more extensive. The user that insists on vandalize the merged enrty and keep adding the sapo xulé entries must be banned because he don't care about. @faeran

There certainly needs to be a way to make a ruling, and lock the entries that are being vandalized in a way that goes against them.

 

But I don't care what we do either way, as long as a consensus is reached.

[Freestate]

5 hours ago, BloodyThorn said:

There certainly needs to be a way to make a ruling, and lock the entries that are being vandalized in a way that goes against them.

 

But I don't care what we do either way, as long as a consensus is reached.

Same game one entry, it's a database rule. And now the same troll is erasing data from wonder boy iii and others with similar brazilian versions. I'm sick of this.

[Kjetter]

*shrug* Don't see why it's worth getting so riled up about. The data is all there regardless of it being one or two entries. There are clearly mixed opinions on how it should be handled, different interpretations of what constitutes "different games". Most likely whoever is making the changes and most of the people accepting the changes are unaware of any discussion about it, which again just underlines how the rules are less clear and available then they should be, and that the moderation system works poorly. Seems pointless trying to stem the tide by clogging up the queue with confusing add/delete/add/delete cycles.

 

In any case, the following is a moderately long novel brief illustration of how well this "one game, one entry" rule is currently implemented - and these are just the ones I am aware of.

In addition to the three Sapo Xule games and the two Monica / Wonderboy games there are three more Brazillian reworked/reskinned games I know of that currently have separate entries:

• Chapolim X Drácula / Ghost House
• Geraldinho / Teddy Boy
• As Aventuras da TV Colosso / Astérix and the Secret Mission

Monica wasn't the only Wonderboy reworking though, there is also Saiyuki World. It saw quite a bit more modification, but I am bringing it up here anyway. Not sure if it's even in the database.

And then unrelated to Brazil there is:

• Ninjabread Man / Anubis II / Myth Makers: Trixie in Toyland / Rock 'n' Roll Adventures
• Super Sidekicks 3: The Next Glory / Neo Geo Cup '98: The Road to the Victory
• Baby T-Rex / We're Back! A Dinosaur's Story / Bamse / Agro Soar / Edd the Duck
• The Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle 2 / Mickey Mouse / Hugo
• Punch-Out!! (Gold Version)/ Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! / Punch-Out!!
• Fury of the Furries / Pac-in-Time

Crazy Castle 2 and Mickey Mouse are merged, but Hugo still has a separate entry. As for Punch-Out!! - the gold version maintains it's own entry, while the two others are merged.

Then there is the previously mentioned oddity of Resident Evil, not sure why they are separate if games with entirely different story and graphics aren't:

• Resident Evil / Resident Evil: Director's Cut / Resident Evil: Director's Cut: Dual Shock Ver.
• Resident Evil 2 / Resident Evil 2: Dual Shock Ver.

And I suppose an argument could be made that half of Phoenix Games catalogue are just reskins of the same game, since the differences mainly boil down to which jpeg they have superimposed on the slide puzzle and which awful Dingo Animations abomination they have slapped on the disc.

[BloodyThorn]

> Seems pointless trying to stem the tide by clogging up the queue with confusing add/delete/add/delete cycles.

And this is all I am concerned about. Honestly I don't care either way. So no getting 'riled up' here.

I just want to stop seeing it in my queue.

[Kjetter]

1 hour ago, BloodyThorn said:

So no getting 'riled up' here.

Was referring to Freestate. I share your views on this wholeheartedly, any solution is fine by me.

[Ritchardo]

2 hours ago, Kjetter said:

Was referring to Freestate. I share your views on this wholeheartedly, any solution is fine by me.

Another in the 'Agree - can we just move past this' camp.  I haven't done any moderation in a few days because I'm sick of being swamped by additions and deletions for the same few games and honestly have no idea where they are - it's gotten beyond confusing.

So given we don't have the guidance 'from above' on how these games should be handled in the database, can we just reach a consensus ourselves and start to move on?

Personally, I'll vote for separate entries in the database.  It, doesn't matter to me, it really doesn't, but this feels like the path of least resistance...

[Freestate]

16 hours ago, Kjetter said:

 

• The Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle 2 / Mickey Mouse / Hugo  SAME SITUATION SAME GAME, UNADRESSED AND CORRECTED SEE HERE https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gameboy/585650-the-bugs-bunny-crazy-castle-2/media 

 

All the examples you have given are plain and simple cases that had not been audited. They are the same game as you can see in gamefaqs or mobygames. They are simple reskins of the main character and little else. Same as most Brazilian re-editions of previously released games, only changes the main character, the titles and graphic art of transition screens or the ending NOTHING ELSE, the code and the game are identical.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Freestate

[Freestate]

17 hours ago, Kjetter said:

 

Monica wasn't the only Wonderboy reworking though, there is also Saiyuki World. It saw quite a bit more modification, but I am bringing it up here anyway. Not sure if it's even in the database.

 

Saiyūki World has more changes than Bikkuriman World and Mônica no Castelo do Dragão, which only changed the characters and story. The design of the rounds have also been modified, and new story elements were added. The time limit from the original version was removed.

The main character (Book was replaced by Son Gokū, and the game's strongest weapon is the Nyoi-bō.

[Kjetter]

The list was not meant as proof of anything beyond that the database is currently inconsistent and that the issue extends beyond Sapo Xule.

Don't take the list as gospel either, there are definitively some that need looking into. Punch-out! for example might have more differences than I am aware of, and in the case of the Ninjabread Man clones I am fairly sure that some of them have iterative changes. But how much, and between which games, I don't know. I'm also aware of two games that are identical for the first two or three levels and then diverges. So an "audit" would have to include actually playing a significant bit of some of these games.

And I still don't think the whole issue is as plain and simple as you want it to be, and that a discussion should be had about the specifics. For many of these it goes beyond a few sprites being swapped, having instead a complete graphic overhaul, music and story. And I understand the point about them playing identically, don't get me wrong. But by contrast Resident Evil patently doesn't have any graphics changed at all and definitively "plays the same", but some of the versions has an entire new gameplay mode added. Some would probably argue that warrants separate entries, but then how about the PS1 games that exists in versions including and excluding playable demos of other games? And would games be separate if they are practically identical beyond graphics, BUT a bonus level has been added or removed? And does intent matter? Because surely the intent of the changes made to Probotector and Sapo Xule is quite different.

Then there is the argument of functionality. In discussions about image uploads I have seen it mentioned multiple times that the database is not a historical archive, but instead exists to supply eyecandy for emulated collections. Having all of these games saddled with release dates and descriptions belonging to what is in reality an entirely different release is neither practical nor pretty.

Like Ritchardo above, if this was up for a vote I'd put mine for "seperate entries". I can see plenty of issues with that solution as well, but I see more issues with the merged system. However, as this is not currently up for a vote I still maintain that any solution is better than none.

[alissongamer]

Analyzing all points, I came to the conclusion that these Brazilian versions should not be separated from the original games, due to the small amount of changes, it is just a regionalization.
I understand some points of view, regarding games with different versions, such as Resident Evil, Resident Evil Director's Cut, Dual Shock version, etc..., and in my point of view they should not be separated.
Romhacks' argument is also not considered valid, since they are precisely unofficial versions and most of them change a lot.
That said, I will not pass amendments that split them up.

BRAZILIAN LANGUAGE: Analisando todos os pontos cheguei a conclusão de que essas versões brasileiras não devem ser separadas dos jogos originais, devido a quantidade pequena de alterações, é apenas uma regionalização.
Entendo alguns pontos de vistas, na questão de jogos com versões diferentes, como Resident Evil, Resident Evil Director's Cut,Dual Shock version, etc..., e no meu ponto de vista eles não deveriam estar separados.
O argumento de Romhacks também não considero como válido, visto que são justamente versões não oficiais e que em sua maioria mudam muita coisa.
Dito isso, não irei aprovar alterações que as separem.

Edited January 9, 2023 by alissongamer

[LonestarK]

One of the sticking points for me on why I can't consider these titles just regionalizations is that the regions in question (Brazil & Portugal), released the base games in their unaltered forms and then released the modified games years later. 

This is similar to Japan releasing Yume Koujou Doki Doki Panic in 1987 then Super Mario USA in 1992.

[Kjetter]

2 hours ago, LonestarK said:

This is similar to Japan releasing Yume Koujou Doki Doki Panic in 1987 then Super Mario USA in 1992.

In fairness, those were released on different platforms. Doki Doki was on Famicom Disc System, and Super Mario USA was on Famicom/NES.

[LonestarK]

40 minutes ago, Kjetter said:

In fairness, those were released on different platforms. Doki Doki was on Famicom Disc System, and Super Mario USA was on Famicom/NES.

Exactly.  It's unprecedented.  Doki Doki/Super Mario USA is the closest analogy of releasing a regionalized version and an unaltered version within the same region, and even that was only released for the Famicon disc add-on.

[BloodyThorn]

There needs to be a way to turn certain requests for certain games off until conflicts are resolved.

I spent a lot of time skipping Sapo Xule modifications.

It'd be nice that once we determine that there is a problem, we can spare moderators from having to continually be part of the conflict.

[Kjetter]

Mhmm. And I hafta say; regardless of who is right or wrong, I don't think it's even remotely conducive to either the integrity of the data or the morale and patience of the moderators to just carpet-bomb the queue with deletion reports and dictatorial "THIS IS BEING DELETED!" messages when the games are clearly just being immediately reentered. And, you know, given the choice between having a superfluous entry or having a superfluous entry currently containing nothing but "This is being baleeted" in every datafield I know what I prefer. Why not leave this well enough alone, try to bring the discussion up in a wider fora - maybe drop a message and a link to the thread on the discord server or something - and then work on a solution when everyone is on the same page? Because this is getting ridiculous.

And, seriously, I've made an attempt to have a sensible discussion about this, and the only counterarguments I have seen amounts to just "no, because the game runs on the same code". And yeah, that seems to be true if you limit the meaning of code to that which dictates gameplay mechanics and level design, but then nobody has really been claiming otherwise. Not even the original post tried to say anything else, yet the counterargument returns to that alone. And when I try posing some questions regarding the scope and ramifications of this practice the chief proponent just goes silent - yet the mod queue is still filling up with more requests for the very games we are discussing. Can't help but feel it's a bit of a childish way to resolve this. And I will acknowledge that, yes, allisongamer made a reply, and I am happy he or she did, but in that reply there is very scant information beyond the conclusion - no real counterpoints and little insight to the thought process beyond, again, "there are not many changes". Which was never up for debate to begin with. So yeah.

 

On a sidenote; although I understand why you would keep romhacks separate, I find it a bit funny to see "because it's unofficial" being used as a reason - does this mean Sapo Xule would have retained a separate entry if TecToy hadn't bothered licensing Psycho Fox to modify?

Edited January 12, 2023 by Kjetter

[Freestate]

On 1/8/2023 at 3:17 PM, Kjetter said:

*shrug* Don't see why it's worth getting so riled up about. The data is all there regardless of it being one or two entries. There are clearly mixed opinions on how it should be handled, different interpretations of what constitutes "different games". Most likely whoever is making the changes and most of the people accepting the changes are unaware of any discussion about it, which again just underlines how the rules are less clear and available then they should be, and that the moderation system works poorly. Seems pointless trying to stem the tide by clogging up the queue with confusing add/delete/add/delete cycles.

 

In any case, the following is a moderately long novel brief illustration of how well this "one game, one entry" rule is currently implemented - and these are just the ones I am aware of.

In addition to the three Sapo Xule games and the two Monica / Wonderboy games there are three more Brazillian reworked/reskinned games I know of that currently have separate entries:

• Chapolim X Drácula / Ghost House
• Geraldinho / Teddy Boy
• As Aventuras da TV Colosso / Astérix and the Secret Mission

Monica wasn't the only Wonderboy reworking though, there is also Saiyuki World. It saw quite a bit more modification, but I am bringing it up here anyway. Not sure if it's even in the database.

And then unrelated to Brazil there is:

• Ninjabread Man / Anubis II / Myth Makers: Trixie in Toyland / Rock 'n' Roll Adventures
• Super Sidekicks 3: The Next Glory / Neo Geo Cup '98: The Road to the Victory
• Baby T-Rex / We're Back! A Dinosaur's Story / Bamse / Agro Soar / Edd the Duck
• The Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle 2 / Mickey Mouse / Hugo
• Punch-Out!! (Gold Version)/ Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! / Punch-Out!!
• Fury of the Furries / Pac-in-Time

Crazy Castle 2 and Mickey Mouse are merged, but Hugo still has a separate entry. As for Punch-Out!! - the gold version maintains it's own entry, while the two others are merged.

Then there is the previously mentioned oddity of Resident Evil, not sure why they are separate if games with entirely different story and graphics aren't:

• Resident Evil / Resident Evil: Director's Cut / Resident Evil: Director's Cut: Dual Shock Ver.
• Resident Evil 2 / Resident Evil 2: Dual Shock Ver.

And I suppose an argument could be made that half of Phoenix Games catalogue are just reskins of the same game, since the differences mainly boil down to which jpeg they have superimposed on the slide puzzle and which awful Dingo Animations abomination they have slapped on the disc.

Most part of the games you're talking we're just unadressed cases. Now they have only ONE APROVED ENTRY. Because they are exactly the same, just regional versions with minor graphic changes to please regional audiences/market. I've seen notifications in the modeation cue about gameplay changes, history and etc, and is (forget me if sounds rude) bullshit an a lie. Superprobotector also has their cutscenes changed, they lack of the energy bar of japan version and is more difficult, bayou billy has changes into gameplay ( collision boxes and timing that make the game extremely difficult in western releases) and dragon power in the usa has ALL DRAGONBALL RELATED graphics changed. Nobody is checking for real the gameplay videos of this games to see that essencially are the same scenario i'm describing, just a few changes in main character, same design, same music, in the wonder boy monica games they didn't even change bosses.... teddy boy and geraldinho only have a main character sprite change and go on.... Someone in the database just want to keep separate the brazilian versions by some appreation of that versions in their childhood and may others by out of laziness with this fight they are following the game. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Freestate

[Kjetter]

I don't see why you think you need to inform me that my list of unaddressed cases in the database are mostly "just unaddressed cases". I thought that was made perfectly clear when I said it was a "brief illustration of how well this "one game, one entry" rule is currently implemented". And I thought I solidified it pretty well when I followed up with "The list was not meant as proof of anything beyond that the database is currently inconsistent and that the issue extends beyond Sapo Xule". And it annoys me that you reply as if you have answered a question when nobody actually posed the question you are answering. Meanwhile you are ignoring anything that would have any substance - like why the practice is what it is, and to what extent it applies, and what the ramifications of continuing or changing the practice might be.

I have been trying to have a conversation, not a dick measuring contest. It's exactly why my suggestion was to leave these entries well enough alone until the dust settled. Have you had a look at the current state of some of the entries related to these Brazilian versions? NOTHING has been improved by this crusade. If anything, fourteen days of this has made it objectively worse and significantly less functional. When scraping for Sapo Xule I am currently only getting two results results; "Kung Fu Kid" and "Sapo Xulé: S.O.S. Lagoa Poluída". What happened to "Psycho Fox" / "(..)Os Invasores do Brejo"?

[Freestate]

6 hours ago, Kjetter said:

"Kung Fu Kid" and "Sapo Xulé: S.O.S. Lagoa Poluída". What happened to "Psycho Fox" / "(..)Os Invasores do Brejo"?

Kung fu kid entry triggers some error when you try to modidy of delete names (it happens with alternates some times, also with images) it's some kind of bug of the database, like the delete bug.

polluted nation is not an official release name, if somebody regionalized it with north-america region, launchbox gives priority to regionalized alternates using your configuration of region order. i've checked entries and at least IN THAT MOMENT are complete, all name data, all regions.

It's not a matter of d*** it's related that your examples are like mine in favour of keeping merged entries, they we're unadressed, when somebody merge them it was aproved. The main point is why if in dozens of equal scenarios people merge games into one entry, we are going to make and excepcion with some brazilian games?

No way.  Same scenario, same resolution.

[Freestate]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:21 PM, BloodyThorn said:

Just to clarify:

These Sega games should be classified under the same game.

I just want to know as I want to know if I should keep rejecting adding the new game, and rejecting deleting the alternative artwork (brazil) off the OG game.

The way we did with dozens of examples previously in the past years points to keep them merged into one entry. It's not my personal opinion, it's a fact if you check across same scenarios in multiple platforms of the 8-16 era when heavy regionalizations were common.