LaunchBox Beta Testing

[Jason Carr]

SentaiBrad said Yay, look, I am breaking it! Error Code System.ArgumentException: Parameter is not valid. at System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height, PixelFormat format) at LaunchBox.GameGui.RefreshImage(Game game, Size size) at LaunchBox.GameGui.RefreshImage() at LaunchBox.GamesControl.Application_Idle(Object sender, EventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponent.FDoIdle(Int32 grfidlef) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ComponentManager.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponentManager.FPushMessageLoop(Int32 dwComponentID, Int32 reason, Int32 pvLoopData) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoopInner(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoop(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context) at System.Windows.Forms.Form.ShowDialog(IWin32Window owner) at LaunchBox.Program.HandleException(Exception ex) at LaunchBox.Program.Application_ThreadException(Object sender, ThreadExceptionEventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.OnThreadException(Exception t) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProcException(Exception e) at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam) at System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.DispatchMessageW(MSG& msg) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ComponentManager.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponentManager.FPushMessageLoop(Int32 dwComponentID, Int32 reason, Int32 pvLoopData) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoopInner(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context) at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoop(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context) at Microsoft.VisualBasic.ApplicationServices.WindowsFormsApplicationBase.OnRun() at Microsoft.VisualBasic.ApplicationServices.WindowsFormsApplicationBase.DoApplicationModel() at Microsoft.VisualBasic.ApplicationServices.WindowsFormsApplicationBase.Run(String[] commandLine) at LaunchBox.Program.SingleInstanceApplication.Run(Form form, StartupNextInstanceEventHandler startupHandler) at LaunchBox.Program.Main(String[] args) So, what I was doing was adding DOS games manually. I went in to the folder: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Pools Of Darkness (1991)(Strategic Simulations Inc). I realized I already added the game and I went to back out of the import. So from the menu that asks you to select the proper exe for the game you're importing I just hit cancel and got this. Edit: Actually, I take that back. It was after you select the exe and the edit screen pops up. I hit the search button and realized I already added the game, so then I hit cancel from that menu.

Alright, apparently I had already fixed this; Brad and I confirmed with the latest beta that I'll put up tonight.

[Jason Carr]

bd00 said Ok, I did a little more testing with the dos wizard and revisited the issue (i mentioned previously) earlier this morning. However, I was using beta3 because I did not stop by the forums before hand. The problem game I had initially when testing, turned out to be just that, a problem game. I tried installing it using DOSbox independently (not using LB) and I encountered the same error. It had nothing to do with LB and in the end I came to the conclusion that there is a problem with the disc image. Moving on, I tried 3 more games using the wizard (all ISO's though) in a fresh instance of LB each time. I tried different deviations (for each game) following on from the ISO option (e.g. do/don't move game, do/don't mount, etc.) and it worked without problems each time. Physical discs are a problem for me, i do have them, but they are in the attic somewhere and I really can't be bothered with the hassle. However, if push comes to shove, I suppose I could drag my lazy behind up there, equipped with my head lamp and venture into the cluttered maze of cardboard boxes. Hmm, I must remember to take bread crumbs, so I can find my way back... maybe a survival kit... and I can't forget my... "LunchBox" ... ahhh that was terrible... i am digressing. Anyway, I will download beta5 and do some more testing on the wizard, but I will switch the main priority to the bulk editing. I will try to report back tonight with the results.

Ha, yeah, physical activity is hard. Thanks for testing that stuff. Good to hear. What games did you test?

[Jason Carr]

bd00 said Bulk editing is working great, have not encountered a problem yet. However, when bulk editing the emulator there is no option to add a new one, only select from a list of already added ones. Personally, I am not sure about the whole wizard type approach you have took and I would prefer just the normal edit window with the incompatible fields greyed out. This would make for quicker and easier editing. Less menu's, better visual representation and such. Also, since the notes field is now occupied by the game description, it may be worth adding something like a "tags" field.

Yeah, regarding the wizard approach, I wanted stupid easy, and also easy-ish to develop. As Brad said, unfortunately doing a multi-edit dialog like the one we have would be more trouble than it's worth (and also potentially a bit too confusing for non-power users). I do plan to allow multiple changes per iteration, but not for this release (need to get it out). For the emulator, in an effort to keep it simple, I do think I'm going to leave that off (the ability add and edit emulators in bulk edit). I have a to do item to allow editing emulators outside of games, so that should hopefully make that less confusing. Agreed on the notes field, we do need some sort of user customizable field that isn't tied to game description. I'll add an item for that. Thanks, bd.

[Jason Carr]

Alright, here's beta 6. I'm hoping this will be the last beta before we release, and I'd like to release tomorrow if possible. There haven't been many breaking changes since the last beta; it's been mostly minor tweaks. So whatever general testing you can do would be appreciated.

[bd00]

Ok, will have a tinker with beta6 today. So far I have tested with Day of the Tentacle, Doom, The Dig, Cyberia and I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. I will get round to testing some more games using varying methods.

[Jason Carr]

Thanks, bd. What are your thoughts on getting rid of the 4 default demo games?

[bd00]

Well, they are a minor annoyance when testing, maybe leave them out of the beta version, but I don't see any harm including them in the final versions. They may appeal to some users new to this sort of thing, however, as it stands, I think most people who will use your app will have looked for it (it's features) specifically and will more than likely have no interest in them. I say either way, no big deal.

[Jason Carr]

Cool. I think I'm gonna get rid of them. Have more testing to do or do you think we're ready for a release?

[Jason Carr]

I went ahead and posted the final version of 3.2. If anyone finds anything critical we can put out a rush release. Here's a couple things that have been rolling around in my head. First off, I'm looking to add the concept of "Libraries", which would essentially be different LaunchBox.xml files. I'm thinking you could have more than one library in your collection, and be able to switch between them using some sort of nested interface like bd00 mentioned a while ago. I want the user to be able to have an infinite amount of games, but RAM becomes an issue, as well as the problem of scrolling through thousands of games. I think the library thing will help those issues, as well as provide the requested nesting functionality. Thoughts? Secondly, I want to add an import/export feature which would package up your LaunchBox games, files and all if you wish, into a zip file, and optionally even include the program with it. This would allow users to distribute packages of games, or easily move games between LaunchBox installations. Thoughts?

[SentaiBrad]

Both features sound like a good idea but I honestly would rather make sure we have searching for games and importing games down. Most of it is just fine, but DOS importing most likely still need work and Wikipedia searching was being talked about. Batch editing still has some work, unless you've fixed that up for the release, I haven't taken a look yet. I also think it could be a bit more streamlined to adding games. Like last night we were talking and I was completely oblivious to the regular "Add" button. Also, have you made any headway on being able to detect gog .dll's? Huge libraries was barely a thought until I started pushing the size, but if some users can't easily add everything or they don't think they can add everything some might get turned off. I find libraries redundant however if you create them based on System, but if it helps RAM a lot, then that could be a benefit. Being able to export also sounds like a fantastic idea, but only export what the user wants, not everything. I would say create a dialogue when you select export. From there have the user check box what they want. Exe, Games located in the LB folder and / or system files. I can think of this being useful if someone needs to reinstall windows and they can just carry over their LB config files so they don't have to re-import everything. Again, I find this a tad redundant if you have LB located on an external hard drive or thumb drive. That is an if though. I would venture to guess most users don't though... I could be wrong. That said, is there a way for you to get usage stats on the program? If you can, do or could, would it even help?

[Jason Carr]

Yes, obviously imports and searching are important. I'd like to get the import/export going sooner rather than later for my own purposes, but the library thing I see as being more long term. How would you streamline adding games? I have the Add option in the button bar, in the Game menu, and the right-click menu. Just not sure what else we could do there. Yes, for the exports, there will be plenty of options. Obviously exporting everything would be useless as the app is already portable; the main point is allowing people to export certain games in their collection. I'm hesitant to collect usage stats as I don't want to go all big brother on people. Privacy is important to me there, so if we did something it'd have to be opt-in.

[bd00]

Something came to mind regarding the import/export features and I don't know if either of you have thought of it, or if it is just a little... taboo?! but read between the lines here. I think the import/export feature could help spread the word about LaunchBox. Users could set up a system, with all the games, the emulator, the game details/artwork and LaunchBox and have it all packaged up in a tidy and solitary zip file. Users can then move this zip file wherever they want and just unpack to a ready built complete library, no work required. One of your biggest hurdles is getting LaunchBox "out-there" and this has the potential to reach a lot of people, very quickly. If it can gain traction, it will be like a snowball rolling down a hill. Please feel free to edit this post. Next, I think the option to separate the games by a platform is a necessity, both for performance and ease of use. It all works fine using the filters, but having an option to visually choose a platform and only load games from that platform is a desirable feature. Like I said using the filters is fine, but it is not so easy for my son. If he could see an image of the platform and click that to view the games from that platform, that would be great. It's not just beneficial for children either, some people would just prefer visual representations of platforms that they can click to see the games, rather than having all their games on a single page and having to use filters or endlessly scrolling to get around, simple but true. I think the key here is "the option". Don't make either way compulsory, let the user decide. One simple checkbox would be all that the users would need to see, on or off. Under the hood, split everything up on a per platform basis, this could still aid users who decide to stick with a single page; e.g. LB could load only libraries that are visible on screen (or getting close) and if the filter menu is accessed, it could proceed to pre-load all platforms (images last, if at all at this point), then dump the ones not in use when the menu is closed. I am going to drift away from the matters at hand for a second and I would like to suggest something and here your thoughts. A really great feature would be if LB could organise your files. Rename, create directories and save images and nfos to those directories, etc.. Then add a local scraper. This would allow users to easily rebuild libraries without having to download everything again, and any customisations made could be permanently saved and carried forward. Also, a lot of people already have this sort of setup from other apps and it would make it an easier transition to LB for them. You could even add the option to move everything to the LB directory. Most emulators are portable, they could go into an emulator folder, the games into the games folder (organised and renamed if they wish), etc. You could even give LB the ability to download emulators and set everything up automatically, however, you would need your own repository of emulators. And if you could somehow add Xpadder automation, that would be the icing on the cake. If you could do this and make everything a million times faster and easier than the big players, you are on to a winner. I understand this would be a big job, maybe check out "RoM Jacket" for an example. This does pretty much everything I just said, but it does so using a bunch of scripts. It is all very chaotic and messy and complex and there has been questions raised over whether it can be trusted, so if you plan to run it, consider doing so in a sandbox or a virtual machine because last time I checked it still automatically downloads a lot of stuff without asking you. But maybe it could help or be some kind of guide on how to approach something like this. The idea of RoM Jacket is great, the principle is amazing and nothing else i have come across offers this kind of automation, but it is a mess. What this market is missing is simplicity, automation and organisation and so far you have proven that you can deliver just that. Thoughts? Sorry for the long post, believe it or not I tried to keep it brief.

[Vinicius256]

Hey Jason, about the library, you could make it like OpenEmu. Take a look to see what I mean: http://openemu.org/ They have these lists by platform on the left side of the program. They also have a drag and drop function to easily import games to your library. Just an idea though

[SentaiBrad]

Vinicius256 said Hey Jason, about the library, you could make it like OpenEmu. Take a look to see what I mean: http://openemu.org/ They have these lists by platform on the left side of the program. They also have a drag and drop function to easily import games to your library. Just an idea though

Now I don't speak for Jason, but I THINK he would say that he doesn't want to copy another program. Honestly, I don't want him to either. We talked about OpenEmu a while ago, and I told him LaunchBox could be perceived as the Windows equivalent to OpenEmu since OpenEmu doesn't seem willing to transition to PC or Linux. LaunchBox really isn't in a place to be ported to other systems yet either, but rest assured Jason wants to do that... I'm hoping for Linux personally. That said, LaunchBox will no doubt be compared to OpenEmu. I fully expect that, so does Jason I assume. That's the nature of the internet. OpenEmu from what I can tell has a Core for each system it shows off. Meaning, it its self is an actual Emulator. LaunchBox is not. Two different philosophies. We can probably learn from OpenEmu, but at its heart two very different programs. LaunchBox is looking to be the Box from which you Launch everything on your PC, tied to Open Source or at least Free Information databases like TheGamesDB and Wikipedia. OpenEmu, and this is from not ever speaking to any of their development team, I assume is just interested in being Emulator focused and I am sure they'll expand that as time goes on. The possible new library function has just been literally brought up and I'm sure he has ideas floating around, I would love to see the GUI go the more artistic route with cool console images, I will probably offer my help with that too seeing as how I do video and photoshop as a hobby I am trying to get paid to do. No, Jason doesn't pay me. Nor do I want him to... nor can he. xD Also, don't keep my long posts, BD's long posts or Jason's long posts from letting anyone else comment! I'm finally glad in about 3 pages its more than just us. xD

[SentaiBrad]

bd00 said Sorry for the long post, believe it or not I tried to keep it brief.

I tried to at first too..... I stopped trying. Instead a lot of the conversation has moved over to Steam. It's just easier for us to talk when he needs something answered quick or to test a new interim build.

[Vinicius256]

SentaiBrad said We can probably learn from OpenEmu, but at its heart two very different programs. LaunchBox is looking to be the Box from which you Launch everything on your PC, tied to Open Source or at least Free Information databases like TheGamesDB and Wikipedia.

When you said everything I kinda imagined LaunchBox being able to support movies XD But I see what you mean =P

SentaiBrad said I would love to see the GUI go the more artistic route with cool console images, I will probably offer my help with that too seeing as how I do video and photoshop as a hobby I am trying to get paid to do.

I would really like to see how that could look

SentaiBrad said Also, don't keep my long posts, BD's long posts or Jason's long posts from letting anyone else comment! I'm finally glad in about 3 pages its more than just us. xD

I will try to comment more often then

[SentaiBrad]

Vinicius256 said

SentaiBrad said We can probably learn from OpenEmu, but at its heart two very different programs. LaunchBox is looking to be the Box from which you Launch everything on your PC, tied to Open Source or at least Free Information databases like TheGamesDB and Wikipedia.

When you said everything I kinda imagined LaunchBox being able to support movies XD But I see what you mean =P

Actually, XBMC is the same exact styled program for Video and Music. It has a completely different GUI, and they even have a games portion similar to what LaunchBox does, but we do it better because LB is a dedicated program for that function. I love XBMC though, all my anime, movies and TV shows are categorized, images are downloaded, info is downloaded, ratings are downloaded etc. It's a very awesome and beautiful way to show all that info. It can do music too, but I still just prefer Pandora and WinAmp for all of that. Also Jason, I personally don't care about game ratings, but I know some people do. Could we look in to a Metacritic API? Some people could find that info useful.

[SentaiBrad]

So I have a new image bug. I installed the new release, I started the program then exited out. From there, I copied over the Images and XML file. Well when clicking on games, the background still changes art but the games front box art doesn't show up. After editing a game then simply hitting OK on it however the image shows back up. I didn't have any problems with just changing out the Beta exe's but this time I chose a new location for the new release.

[Jason Carr]

Sorry it's been so long guys, just had a really busy week. I'll be on later tonight to read through and respond to everything. Everyone's input is always appreciated (even if I can't get to it right away).

[Jason Carr]

bd00 said Something came to mind regarding the import/export features and I don't know if either of you have thought of it, or if it is just a little... taboo?! but read between the lines here. I think the import/export feature could help spread the word about LaunchBox. Users could set up a system, with all the games, the emulator, the game details/artwork and LaunchBox and have it all packaged up in a tidy and solitary zip file. Users can then move this zip file wherever they want and just unpack to a ready built complete library, no work required. One of your biggest hurdles is getting LaunchBox "out-there" and this has the potential to reach a lot of people, very quickly. If it can gain traction, it will be like a snowball rolling down a hill. Please feel free to edit this post.

Yeah, I actually thought about that (it was the primary reason I wanted to make imports and exports a focus). For instance, I want to be able to export a few games here and there for my son's computer. And I want to be able to distribute packages with abandonware games. I don't want to encourage piracy of any kind, but as far as I'm concerned, if you can't buy a game anywhere, it's fair game. And yeah, I see huge potential there as far as getting LaunchBox "out there".

bd00 said Next, I think the option to separate the games by a platform is a necessity, both for performance and ease of use. It all works fine using the filters, but having an option to visually choose a platform and only load games from that platform is a desirable feature. Like I said using the filters is fine, but it is not so easy for my son. If he could see an image of the platform and click that to view the games from that platform, that would be great. It's not just beneficial for children either, some people would just prefer visual representations of platforms that they can click to see the games, rather than having all their games on a single page and having to use filters or endlessly scrolling to get around, simple but true. I think the key here is "the option". Don't make either way compulsory, let the user decide. One simple checkbox would be all that the users would need to see, on or off. Under the hood, split everything up on a per platform basis, this could still aid users who decide to stick with a single page; e.g. LB could load only libraries that are visible on screen (or getting close) and if the filter menu is accessed, it could proceed to pre-load all platforms (images last, if at all at this point), then dump the ones not in use when the menu is closed.

Some good points there. We have some interesting things to discuss regarding how to do the libraries thing, and I'm not sure if I want to nail it down to a library per platform. I was more thinking any number of libraries, and you could divide them up however you wish. That might get too complicated though, I'm not sure. Just like the game details view (or worse), we'll need to have some significant discussion on this one. Might be good to put it in a separate thread.