Sapo Xule

[Jason Carr]

1 hour ago, Kjetter said:

Well, Freestate has tagged some (presumably) staff/admin early on in the discussion with zero response, and made a separate topic in the troubleshooting section that also got exactly zero replies. I recently posted the thread in the database section of the discord and asked if any staff or admin could have a look at it or at the very least clear the queue-clog. Guess what, zero response.

I am rapidly forming the opinion that nobody on the staff-end of this cares at all. It seems to me that the database is in fact maintained, with little to no oversight, solely by users who only need to submit a minute amount of data to achieve moderation rights. For reference it took me a few days from signing up at all. And I can't believe I have to say this, but that is a really really terrible idea, especially when the system has so little accountability and transparency. The fact that it works at all is a miracle. And while it works, it certainly doesn't work well - and this situation is only one of many examples of why.

 

Edit: Just to further illustrate the perceived lack of interest from staff - this is currently the fourth most discussed topic in "Contributions", second if you discount the stickies.

This is not coming from a lack of interest; rather, it's coming from a lack of time. We are currently working on massive development for the games database, so it is difficult to focus on quarrels like these (nor is it fun). Personally, I don't care at all about the subject that is being discussed.

But honestly, this is easy guys. Take a vote, and do whatever has the most votes. There's no reason to be *this* invested in such a silly topic.

[faeran]

I would also like to add that with whatever decision is made, remember that the reason the DB exists is to facilitate the seamless downloading of metadata and media into LaunchBox.

So, for any type of change to the DB, the main question to ask is: will this interfere with the seamless downloading of metadata and media of a game that is imported into LaunchBox?

As we get closer to us uncovering some of the changes we are making to the database, we will also bring with it a more robust vision and set of guidelines, but whatever we end up sending out, just remember that it's all in the pursuit of better metadata and media scraping inside of LaunchBox.

[Kjetter]

6 hours ago, Jason Carr said:

This is not coming from a lack of interest; rather, it's coming from a lack of time. We are currently working on massive development for the games database, so it is difficult to focus on quarrels like these (nor is it fun). Personally, I don't care at all about the subject that is being discussed.

But honestly, this is easy guys. Take a vote, and do whatever has the most votes. There's no reason to be *this* invested in such a silly topic.

I'm happy to hear that, there is nothing I'd rather be wrong about, and I am happy you are chiming in. But the problem here isn't that we can't find a majority agreement, the problem is that there seems to be no reason for reaching one if a singular moderator can just declare discussion pointless and enact his own standard. The idea of three approvals might be in place to prevent this, but I just the other day had an image replacement suggestion which was a visible and obvious downgrade being accepted 12 to 8, so as far as I can tell it would only be a matter of tenacity to get any change enacted. And as a result the queue is absolutely chock full of requests related to these entries, so even trying to untangle it to achieve _any_ uniform result can be tricky. The same entry might have someone trying to delete, change and re-add the same information at the same time, leaving behind entries looking like this (where in the Ouya game "DELETE DUPE"  Joel Green is now a Brazilian toad battling cancer with the power of smelly shoes).

The actual quarreling has been far less about what to do than it has been about whats been done while a discourse was attempted. Most people here have not been saying they are angry about what might happen to Sapo Xule, they are saying they are angry about how much of a mess this has made, how tiresome and difficult it's making moderating, and how long it's been going on. I don't think it's fair calling that silly, especially considering the sheer amount of work some people put in on the database.

Anyways, "have a vote" was not exactly the executive decision I hoped for, but it was one nevertheless. And as I've said earlier, my vote is for separation. For just the Tectoy games, or for all games with graphical overhauls - I don't care. I vote for separation in either case.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Kjetter

[Jason Carr]

33 minutes ago, Kjetter said:

I'm happy to hear that, there is nothing I'd rather be wrong about, and I am happy you are chiming in. But the problem here isn't that we can't find a majority agreement, the problem is that there seems to be no reason for reaching one if a singular moderator can just declare discussion pointless and enact his own standard. The idea of three approvals might be in place to prevent this, but I just the other day had an image replacement suggestion which was a visible and obvious downgrade being accepted 12 to 8, so as far as I can tell it would only be a matter of tenacity to get any change enacted. And as a result the queue is absolutely chock full of requests related to these entries, so even trying to untangle it to achieve _any_ uniform result can be tricky. The same entry might have someone trying to delete, change and re-add the same information at the same time, leaving behind entries looking like this (where in the Ouya game "DELETE DUPE"  Joel Green is now a Brazilian toad battling cancer with the power of smelly shoes).

The actual quarreling has been far less about what to do than it has been about whats been done while a discourse was attempted. Most people here have not been saying they are angry about what might happen to Sapo Xule, they are saying they are angry about how much of a mess this has made, how tiresome and difficult it's making moderating, and how long it's been going on. I don't think it's fair calling that silly, especially considering the sheer amount of work some people put in on the database.

Anyways, "have a vote" was not exactly the executive decision I hoped for, but it was one nevertheless. And as I've said earlier, my vote is for separation. For just the Tectoy games, or for all games with graphical overhauls - I don't care. I vote for separation in either case.

I see your point. Sorry if my words were a little insensitive there. I get that it's frustrating having to moderate a bunch of worthless back and forth. How many games are affected? I can probably clear the queue for those games if needed.

[Kjetter]

20 minutes ago, Jason Carr said:

I see your point. Sorry if my words were a little insensitive there. I get that it's frustrating having to moderate a bunch of worthless back and forth. How many games are affected? I can probably clear the queue for those games if needed.

It's hard to be certain, since I can only view the queue linearly, and since several entries have their names and alt names changed making searching difficult. But definitively anything to do with Sapo Xule (Psycho Fox / Kung Fu Kid / Astro Warrior) and Chapolim X Drácula: Um Duelo Assustador (Ghost House), and to a lesser extent I believe I still see As Aventuras da TV Colosso (Asterix and the Secret Mission) occasionally - though, again, a lot of them are probably in the queue with titles such as "DUPE DELETE" etc., as well as several half-finished entries that are halfway between Sapo Xule and some Genesis romhack under who-knows-what name.

Might just be easier to track down the active ones based on the submitting user.

In these upcoming changes you are working on, would you please consider including a submission and change history? It would massively cut down on unintended edit wars and repeat work, and it would make it a lot easier to restore errors and vandalism. If you want to I can give you an example of a website that has a reasonably robust system implemented.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Kjetter

[BloodyThorn]

On 1/23/2023 at 3:35 AM, Ritchardo said:

I can't believe this is still going on... three weeks of utter madness. I'm sick to the back teeth of seeing these games coming up again and again and again.  For those who are fanatically deleting and merging these games can I ask, because I don't understand, WHY DO YOU CARE?!  Like seriously, what difference does it make to you or your life if there are two separate entries AIR QUOTES "For the same game" - there are enough people with enough doubts that it should be a separate entry.  So let them have it!  Don't have it i your collection, I couldn't care less but stop telling enforcing your opinion on others.

 

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

 

And I agree wholeheartedly with kurzih - there is so much valuable work still to be done to improve the overall quality of the database and instead we're wasting time going round and round on some obscure Brazilian releases of Master System games because of zealotism. 

 

Yup, spending a good portion of my morning moderation skipping Xapo Zule and Chapolim X Drácula: Um Duelo Assustador...

 

Again.

[Kjetter]

I've been skipping them as well since this all kicked off, to the point where I can't really be bothered doing much moderation at all. Between this, the guy who wanted all his disc-fanart removed and the "get your dang fanart out of my normal catemagories"-crusade it's been practically unworkable.

I suppose we could make an attempt at this point to clean things up as far as the Brazilian entries goes, as per instructions to just go with the majority ruling - which does seem to lean towards separation by a decent margin (ignoring the actual majority vote of "oh please, have mercy, no more Brazilian frogs, anything but that, let's just torch the entire rain-forest already"). But if the decision isn't respected anyway it would only be making things messier - not to mention that it would be a lot easier working from a clean slate, rather than engaging with the extant reports - so I'm not really sure if it's a good idea.

Here's hoping Jason clears the queue asap so the month of the smelly frog can end already.

[Jason Carr]

I just removed all the open Sapo Xule moderations from the database. To hopefully clear this up, we will *not* be removing or combining all of the Sapo Xule games together, for one reason: the primary goal around here is to make sure that users have the best experience possible when scraping games in LaunchBox. Obviously, if games are launched as different games, we need them to be separate for the best experience.

[Kjetter]

32 minutes ago, Jason Carr said:

I just removed all the open Sapo Xule moderations from the database. To hopefully clear this up, we will *not* be removing or combining all of the Sapo Xule games together, for one reason: the primary goal around here is to make sure that users have the best experience possible when scraping games in LaunchBox. Obviously, if games are launched as different games, we need them to be separate for the best experience.

Excellent. Thank you.

And just to preempt further endless discussion, can you confirm if this applies to all the games with full regional overhauls, like major graphical changes and/or vastly different story and presentation? In other words, those games that _present themselves as seperate entities_ and which saw more than a title change and some minor regional tweaks (ie. hamburgers in alex kidd or swastikas in bionic commando).

Edited January 24, 2023 by Kjetter

[Jason Carr]

10 hours ago, Kjetter said:

Excellent. Thank you.

And just to preempt further endless discussion, can you confirm if this applies to all the games with full regional overhauls, like major graphical changes and/or vastly different story and presentation? In other words, those games that _present themselves as seperate entities_ and which saw more than a title change and some minor regional tweaks (ie. hamburgers in alex kidd or swastikas in bionic commando).

I'm definitely not educated enough on that subject (nor do I fully understand it) to properly answer that question, to be honest. I don't think that games with the same titles that have major changes should be separate games, no...and I also don't think it's wise to make a blanket conclusion on that. But again, I feel pretty unqualified to make that decision.

[xevious1974]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:43 PM, Jason Carr said:

I just removed all the open Sapo Xule moderations from the database. To hopefully clear this up, we will *not* be removing or combining all of the Sapo Xule games together, for one reason: the primary goal around here is to make sure that users have the best experience possible when scraping games in LaunchBox. Obviously, if games are launched as different games, we need them to be separate for the best experience.

Oh, I supposed it from the start. And it is the perfect reply.

This should help to mod the titles...also the ones for Retroachievements experience [Subset]. I added some titles that require a separated ID and maybe I can have them, finally, in the DB!!!

I'll add some hack rom to the DB, I am happy for that

[alissongamer]

For me the TecToy versions are small modifications to be separated into different games, and both the organization issue and the Retroachievements ID can easily be organized within LaunchBox as additional applications, since whoever needs to identify the rom ID is the emulator and not the frontend.
So I will continue to deny this change, but I think it would be interesting to do a poll.

[xevious1974]

20 hours ago, alissongamer said:

For me the TecToy versions are small modifications to be separated into different games, and both the organization issue and the Retroachievements ID can easily be organized within LaunchBox as additional applications, since whoever needs to identify the rom ID is the emulator and not the frontend.
So I will continue to deny this change, but I think it would be interesting to do a poll.

So, when Jason says:

the primary goal around here is to make sure that users have the best experience possible when scraping games in LaunchBox. Obviously, if games are launched as different games, we need them to be separate for the best experience.

you dont care about it. ok.

My best experience with Retroachievments is having separated entry in LB because I want to see the different achievements.

I think that it is really ridiculous this stance towards those who want to enjoy using LB bearing in mind that it would not take anything away from others

Also Martin Luther asked himself if he was doing right a lot of times. And it was for a more important reason. We are talking about a stupid entry. What do you lose with a new entry in DB?

I am curious

 

[LonestarK]

Pretty sure multiple users in multiple threads have said that your issue with retroachievements would be resolved if you added the subset title as an alternate name to the base game. 

[xevious1974]

1 hour ago, LonestarK said:

Pretty sure multiple users in multiple threads have said that your issue with retroachievements would be resolved if you added the subset title as an alternate name to the base game. 

Pretty sure you have read my reply, then

Is it really that annoying to ask to insert a new data?

I am just curious