Let's Talk Atari 5200 Emulation

[Lordmonkus]

Let's get the first thing out of the way. No matter which way you to choose to emulate the Atari 5200 there are going to be issues. There are 3 choices of emulators, Kat5200, Mess (Mame) or Alitirra and each of them have their own quirks making each less than the perfect choice.

Kat5200 is probably the easiest to get up and running and setup but it is ugly and it changes your monitors resolution when loading and exiting a game which people can find off putting and if you are on a multi monitor setup it moves windows around on the monitors. It also has terrible to non existent shader support. While it does have some screen effects to recreate an old TV look that is pretty much all it has, there are no CRT scanlines or anything else. See update #2 below. Kat5200 is now my recommended way to emulate the 5200 for most people.

Mess (Mame) is the next easiest to setup and for the most part it is pretty good, it has good CRT shaders and easy to setup controls. There is a catch however which makes Mess (Mame) kind of suck, certain games have controller issues and this is baked into the emulator until it gets fixed. I have not tested every single game to figure out all the games with this issue but I can tell you that Moon Patrol and Pitfall have controller issues.

Altirra is widely considered to the best way to emulate the 5200 but it is also the most complicated to get setup. The controller configuration is annoying but I did find a short how to on the Atariage forums here https://atariage.com/forums/topic/242107-altirra-26-xbox-360-controller-5200-mode/
Unfortunately the controller setup is the least of the problems when it comes to Altirra. The bigger problem comes when you want to load a game, when you load a game a popup window will appear asking for a mapper. If you don't pick the right mapper the game won't work and obviously in a frontend you don't want to have to pick a mapper each time you load a game.

There is a way around this mapper problem however but it does involve some work converting your roms so they have a header with the information needed by Altirra to auto load the rom with the mapper bypassing the popup window. One option is a java program a user over on the Atariage forums made which lets you drag your rom files into the window and convert them and here is the link to it https://atariage.com/forums/topic/235118-atari-rom-maker/
I did find this to not be 100% though and not fully automatic, you had to pick the mapper for each game and if you don't know which mapper each game needs you still need to load the game in Altirra to find out. The defaulted recommended mapper was not always the correct one. There is one other way which also takes some time but it works. You can load your rom into Altirra and then using the Altirra UI you can save out a new rom file headered and ready to go. Once you generate all new roms you can then import those into Launchbox and they will load directly into Altirra without the mapper window. Here is the link to the Atariage forum where I found this information http://atariage.com/forums/topic/259866-help-with-altirra-271-and-pop-up-box-of-select-cartridge-mapper/#entry3648699

This is the process you have to go through:

1) Boot a ROM image in Altirra

2) Manually select the correct cartridge mapper in the pop-up dialog box

3) Once the ROM is running, use: "File" menu / "Save Firmware" / "Save Cartridge"

4) Save the cartridge image with header as a new file

I found the best way to deal with this was to make a new folder to save your games out to after loading them in to Altirra. Converting all of my roms, about 97 of them, took me about 2 hours.

Update:
Altirra has been updated, as of version 2.90 it now has a built in database reducing the need to guess the chip type which should remove the need to go through the above steps.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/267797-altirra-290-released/

Update #2:
Kat5200 has been updated and no longer messes with resolution, it also now has some support for some Retroarch GLSL shader files. I tested some of the CRT shaders and found Lottes is the one that plays best with it and looks as intended.

[Zombeaver]

Interesting. The 5200 is something I've been meaning to get around to but haven't yet.

My Atari 8-bit emulator of choice - Atari 800 - supposedly emulates the 5200 as well but I haven't tried it with any 5200 games. It's great for 800 games though. I'll try it out with some 5200 games and see how well it goes.

[Zombeaver]

So I did some testing and they do work, though you'll run into the same issue with the headers. I believe you can do the same thing as you mentioned above, though the way I got around it was via save states - you can save external save state files (naming them after the game title) so I just saved them post mapper-selection. Then you can just direct the save states to the emulator just like a rom and it boots correctly without any selection. You can actually do the same thing with save states in CCS64.

[Lordmonkus]

What issues did you run into ? The emulator asking for which mapper to use ? If you got asked which mapper then you were still loading the original rom, you need to load the new rom that got generated. I converted my full 5200 set last night (90+ games) and re-imported them all and what I have loaded to test out works just fine.

[Zombeaver]

Just now, lordmonkus said:

What issues did you run into ? The emulator asking for which mapper to use ?

Yes, on initial load.

1 minute ago, lordmonkus said:

If you got asked which mapper then you were still loading the original rom, you need to load the new rom that got generated. I converted my full 5200 set last night (90+ games) and re-imported them all and what I have loaded to test out works just fine.

You can still load from the original rom so long as you use a save-state post-mapper selection. You load the cart, select the right one, save state and name it as the game title and then use that as your "rom". It boots up normally and won't prompt you to select the mapper. This is with Atari 800. I don't know if this is an option Altirra.

[Lordmonkus]

The converted rom shouldn't won't ask for the mapper and I don't like to bother with save states plus this way it's a converted set of roms so if for whatever reason the save states get lost or corrupted like save states tend to do you still have a set of roms.

As for the Atari 800 I don't know, I don't have any 800 games to try it out with.

[Zombeaver]

5 minutes ago, lordmonkus said:

The converted rom shouldn't won't ask for the mapper and I don't like to bother with save states plus this way it's a converted set of roms so if for whatever reason the save states get lost or corrupted like save states tend to do you still have a set of roms.

It's the same thing, just a different method. You don't actually even need the original roms afterwards.

5 minutes ago, lordmonkus said:

As for the Atari 800 I don't know, I don't have any 800 games to try it out with.

I'm not asking about Atari 800. Atari 800 is the name of the emulator. It's the emulator I use for Atari 800 games but it also works for 5200.

[Lordmonkus]

Oh, I thought with the save states you would still need the original rom.

Ahh, I didn't know about that emulator but then again the 800 is something I don't even think about let alone worry about

[Zombeaver]

15 minutes ago, lordmonkus said:

Oh, I thought with the save states you would still need the original rom.

Yeah I went ahead and tested deleting the actual rom files and they still work fine without them. It calls them a save state but it seems to be a complete dump (I guess that's not too crazy given how small the games are).

15 minutes ago, lordmonkus said:

Ahh, I didn't know about that emulator but then again the 800 is something I don't even think about let alone worry about

Yep, Atari 800 is a great little emulator (and platform). Generally speaking the C64 had better versions of most games (and a much larger library) but there are some notable exceptions like Lucasarts' (at the time Lucasfilm Games) early efforts, which were originally created for the Atari 8-bit and later ported to the C64. They're actually better on the Atari 8-bit despite the somewhat inferior hardware.

There are also a lot of interesting and weird Polish games on it... they had a bit of an indie scene for it for a while.

[Lordmonkus]

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/267797-altirra-290-released/

Version 2.90 of Altirra now has a built in database reducing (possibly removing) the need to guess chip types of games.

[bundangdon]

6 hours ago, lordmonkus said:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/267797-altirra-290-released/

Version 2.90 of Altirra now has a built in database reducing (possibly removing) the need to guess chip types of games.

This is some excellent news! Altirra is my "go-to" emulator for the 5200 and Atari computer systems

[angelobodetti]

Have you guys noticed the new core in RetroArch called "Atari 8bit and 5200"?

i messed with it last night for a few minutes and it would load a game but the bios screen said it wasn't a real bios. 

Have any of you had success with this?

[bundangdon]

1 hour ago, angelobodetti said:

Have you guys noticed the new core in RetroArch called "Atari 8bit and 5200"?

i messed with it last night for a few minutes and it would load a game but the bios screen said it wasn't a real bios. 

Have any of you had success with this?

I tried it also earlier today and had the same results. Does anyone know how to set up the bios with this core?

[DOS76]

Yeah @Zombeaverhas it working as far as I know

[bundangdon]

1 minute ago, DOS76 said:

Yeah @Zombeaverhas it working as far as I know

Just wondering if it's even worth it, or should I just stick with Altirra since it's already an excellent emulator

[Lordmonkus]

If you want RA shaders it's worth it.

[angelobodetti]

yea anytime you can get something working in RA it seems worth it.

Hopefully @Zombeaver can let us know what he did to get past the bios screen issue.

[Belgarath]

You have to press f1 to get to the Atari800 options (if it brings up the retroarch options just press f1 again) from the atari800 options go to emulator configuration > system rom settings > 5200 bios rom locations and set original to your 5200.rom which you should have in your retroarch\system folder.  Then press the tab key a couple of times to get back to the emulator configuration menu and make sure you save the config file. Should work after that.

 

Or possibly even easier, after you have tried and failed to load an atari 5200 game, look in your retroarch folder and you should see a .atari800.cfg file where it says ROM_5200=

put the path and filename of your 5200.rom there e.g. ROM_5200= F:\Emus\Multi\RetroArch\system\5200.ROM

Oh and it seems its f4 to start a game, doesn't seem remappable at the moment, let alone all the number keys etc.

[bundangdon]

11 hours ago, Belgarath said:

You have to press f1 to get to the Atari800 options (if it brings up the retroarch options just press f1 again) from the atari800 options go to emulator configuration > system rom settings > 5200 bios rom locations and set original to your 5200.rom which you should have in your retroarch\system folder.  Then press the tab key a couple of times to get back to the emulator configuration menu and make sure you save the config file. Should work after that.

 

Or possibly even easier, after you have tried and failed to load an atari 5200 game, look in your retroarch folder and you should see a .atari800.cfg file where it says ROM_5200=

put the path and filename of your 5200.rom there e.g. ROM_5200= F:\Emus\Multi\RetroArch\system\5200.ROM

Oh and it seems its f4 to start a game, doesn't seem remappable at the moment, let alone all the number keys etc.

Yay! I finally got it working. Once I found the 5200.rom file and saved the configuration, it started to work and every game I've tried so far has been playable. Thank you again!

[Zombeaver]

Sorry guys, been off working on other things lately.

@Belgarath pretty much covered it for the bios settings. You just have to pull up the Atari800 UI and tell it where they are. You can actually just have it scan a directory and it'll pull multiple bios files in, not just 5200 (because it plays Atari 8-bit games as well). Emulator Configuration -> System Rom Settings -> Find rom images in a directory -> navigate into the directory where they're located and press space. Then go to Emulator Configuration -> Save Configuration File.

If you want to get particularly fancy, you can even use external palettes to make it look a bit better. laoo.act is particularly good - I've attached it below. You just go to Display Settings -> External Palette and navigate to the palette file. Save the configuration afterwards.

F2 = Option
F3 = Select
F4 = Start

The default controller controls are:

L1 = Option
R1 = Toggle UI
L2 = Space
R2 = Escape
Select = Select
Start = Start
A = Fire/Return in GUI
B = Return
X = Fire 2/Escape in GUI
Y = Virtual Keyboard On/Off

Those can be rearranged via Quick Menu -> Controls but it doesn't show the actual functions above, just "User 1 B" "User 1 Y" etc. so it can be a bit confusing to do. You might want to consider turning on an "enable hotkeys" hotkey if you don't already as a core override because there will be times when you need to use the keyboard and don't want to be activating various RA functions while doing so.

This is what I have in my core override (RA\config\Atari800.cfg) currently:

custom_viewport_width = "1883"
custom_viewport_height = "1345"
custom_viewport_x = "15"
custom_viewport_y = "-135"
aspect_ratio_index = "22"
video_shader = ":\shaders\shaders_glsl\crt\crt-hyllian-multipass.glslp"
input_libretro_device_p1 = "513"
input_enable_hotkey = "shift"

The viewport settings may need some adjustment from game to game (which you can do via per-game overrides) but this is generally a good starting point. With these settings you'll need to hold shift to enable RA hotkeys.

laoo.act