Platform Games wheel lag/not smooth

[ilucifer]

i builded a bartop Arcade powered by big box. My problem is when i search around platforms or games the wheel is not smooth.Pc specs are:

MotherBoard:Asus H110M-K

CPU:Intel Pentium G4400 3.3Ghz skylake

GPU: GeForce GT 710 1GB

Ram: 8gb DDR4

SSD For windows and launchbox

HDD only for Roms , CHDs and emulators

My library has about 9000 games

My exact problem can be seen in this video.i found it in download section and i saw that has the same lag as my pc

  

what am i  doing wrong???

Edited March 23, 2017 by ilucifer

[SentaiBrad]

So, in short, you're really not. There are probably a lot of things that can be done to make it smoother, for sure, but nothing wrong is going on. With gigantic libraries, a performance loss needs to be expected. Some games have 3-4 images with a mix of qualities, and some have 30 images with a mix of qualities. Even if you're not loading that game, LaunchBox and Big Box need to think about where your going, adding more logic. So your ram is fine, increasing the ram cache really only helps in LaunchBox though. I'm not familiar with these new Pentiums, but it depends on how many cores that CPU has, and what your machine is like. How much is being shared across multiple applications? Your GPU is also a bit outdated at this point, and Big Box can take advantage of the GPU. So in short, you're not doing anything wrong, but there is a certain level that you must realize when dealing with a machine that is a bit older. I don't know the specs off hand for that PC that recorded that video, but they were recording video and showing things off. You can take a look at the videos I had shot of Big Box on our channel. I did the Big Box Startup videos tutorials and How to make your LaunchBox look like ours. That's the performance I get, and I don't think the video is outrageous. Try and follow some of the steps in this thread and see if it helps you out at all though, and let me know.

 

[ilucifer]

For now i will live with that! What ever i tried didn't work. Thanks for your advise.

[BaseMale]

I'm sorry, but the argument that performance should be expected to decrease with library size is ridiculous (isn't that the point of BB? sorting through a large library).  You aren't processing the entire database each frame.  At least I hope you aren't,  Any pc running LaunchBox/BigBox is capable of running software much more complex than a launcher (emulating an arcade machine for example), and at a much more consistent frame rate.  At it's core, BigBox is a tool for selecting and launching a game.  Scrolling through a game library of any size on any machine capable of running Windows 10 (since BB uses WPF) should be buttery smooth without having to tweak any settings in BB or the PC in question.  The artwork or any other metadata associated with a game or platform should only ever enhance the experience.  If loading/caching of artwork or metadata is negatively impacting a user's ability to interact with the software, you are doing it wrong.  If all the features you tout that make BB so much more advanced than any other launcher are degrading the applications response to user interaction, you are doing it wrong.

 

I don't mean to sound like a dick here, but I've read through too many of these performance threads where the response from the moderators has been concerning.  It leads me to believe that not only is there a fundamental flaw in BigBox's architecture, but that the developers behind the scenes don't even realize it.  I don't configure my PC to run any other software I install, I shouldn't have to configure it to run BB.  And I certainly shouldn't have to worry that my game library is too large (File explorer doesn't choke with the thousands of files on my pc).  And from a software development standpoint:  Make sure your core feature set is nailed down and rock solid.  If you don't have that nailed down, nothing else matters.

 

I like BigBox.  More than I do any other front end.  That said, it has serious issues.  At times, it will launch the wrong game (seriously wtf).  This usually happens if I'm scrolling really fast.  If I exit the game and re-launch, then it will launch the correct game.  This is the bread and butter of BB, and it screws up.  Combined with the performance problems, this is unacceptable, and it forces me to use a different front end.

 

 

[Jason Carr]

Honestly, @BaseMale, I am doing my best and always making performance improvements. You've given us no information on how to help you solve any performance issues here. My apologies if myself or any moderator has ever told you or anyone else that the performance couldn't be improved, because it always can, and I'm always working on it. However, with all due respect, it is very clear that you are talking completely out of your element here.

I work hard to understand and fix every single issue that we run into. But by claiming that Big Box is launching the wrong game, it is obvious that something is either very wrong with your computer, or you don't know how to use the software. I'm more than happy to give you a refund. Just use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the site and give us your email, and we'll send out your refund right away.

[BaseMale]

I don't want a refund, and I'm not angry.  I'm more disappointed that Big Box has these problems and that the solutions suggested by the moderators is to modify settings on your pc or accept it because you have a large library.  I want Big Box to work, and I want it to be responsive.  It doesn't always, and it's not.  And it's not because of my pc or my game library.  As I stated before, File explorer can deal with all the files on my pc and not slow down.  Other front ends are very responsive.  There is no reason Big Box should ever slow down (barring a rogue process hogging all the pc resources which isn't the case).  To be clear, the loading of images or metadata shouldn't not impact the responsiveness of the UI.  Maybe this is a WPF thing, as I've seen similar behavior on the Xbox one and Windows Store.  At times it seems like all the images need to load before you user input is accepted, and that is aggravating as well. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by stating I'm out of my element.  I know the problems I'm experiencing.  Acknowledgement of the problem instead of telling users it is their PC or their large library would go a long way.

 

For some further info on launching the wrong game.  It seems to happen when the UI slows down.  Something isn't in sync.

[Lordmonkus]

The reason that moderators such as myself suggest system and Launchbox tweaks is because there is such a large variety of systems and hardware combinations out there and maintaining a PC is something that should be done anyway. Maintaining and tweaking a PC is something that often yields very significant results. You would be surprised at how often the average users PC is slowed down by installed bloatware , out of date drivers and just poor PC maintenance. If you read my performance thread you will see in that thread I have Launchbox running smoothly on two very differently specced systems but tweaks did have to to be made on the low end PC of course.

You make a very broad and blanket statement like "there is no reason Big Box should ever slow down" when there are plenty of possible reasons for Launchbox and other software to slowdown completely unrelated to the software itself. 

File explorer can handle many files without slow down but your file explorer is also not dealing with metadata, images and effects while doing it either. Also if you navigate to a folder with thousands of files in it I am quite sure you will find at times it will bog down and cache for a moment while opening that folder. Lastly file explorer is tied into the OS at a very low level and is not to be compared to a graphical program on top of the OS.

 

[syntax_X]

Make sure you Forced all images to CACHE in BigBox. I missed this step and was very impressed with the results. It will take a long time if you have a 30k+ library but after that buttery smooth.

Be sure to have enough disk space for the cache as it exceeds the size of your image library 

[BaseMale]

I hope my comments aren't being taken the wrong way here.  I'm not intending to anger anybody or belittle their efforts.  I'm aware of the difficulty and amount of work it takes to write a piece of software as large as Big Box.  On a platform as diverse as the PC no less.  Especially for a single person.  I was hoping to open a more constructive discussion on this topic.  Yes, I've read through all the performance related threads.  Finally, this one prompted me to chime in.  I don't have access to the Big Box code base, so in that regard, I am "out of my element".  That said, after using Big Box for a while, on several different PCs, and comparing to other front ends, I believe there is a legitimate performance problem with it.  And worse, I think those performance problems are leading to actual crashes.  From the responses I've read in the related threads, I'm concerned that this might be overlooked. 

Before I continue, yes, I've seen the posts stating that performance is an ongoing effort.  It's the suggestions to improve performance that make me question if Big Box will ever work the way I would expect it to.  My comparisons to File Explorer are simply because at a base level, they are very similar.  They allow you to traverse through a hierarchy of files on your PC.  File Explorer allows for more manipulation of your files, while Big Box provides a pretty interface.  File Explorer does in fact deal with metadata.  Perhaps not the amount that Big Box does, but that is irrelevant.  And maybe that's where we disagree?  In my opinion, metadata (to be clear, I'm including images, videos, etc.) should have no bearing on performance at all, especially in regards to user interaction (perhaps perceived performance).  It should simply populate when it's ready.  But as a user, it seems like the performance problems are related to metadata.  It feels like I can't continue scrolling until the images and videos are loaded.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but again, I'm shooting in the dark.  This isn't open source software.  The best I can do to help out is post my experience here and what I perceive is the problem.  I think @syntax_X response above further strengthens my theory.  Of course, it's only my opinion that the metadata should strictly be a visual nicety that has no impact on performance.  Ideally, I should be able to have 100,000 games, each with video and 30 images, all in a single platform and be able to scroll through them all seamlessly.  If my PC can't keep up with the loading of all that, I scroll through blank or placeholder metadata.  But at least it's responsive.

Again, I like Big Box and want to use it.  Hopefully I've been a little help here.

 

[Lordmonkus]

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

comparing to other front ends

You cannot directly compare Launchbox to other frontends, no other front end does everything that Launchbox does at the same time. Launchbox looks the best, is most customizable, easy to use, feature rich and rapidly developed. This does come at the cost of some performance though and no other front end offers all of these things in a single package.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

I think those performance problems are leading to actual crashes

I won't say people aren't experiencing crashes but I have had very few crashes ever and usually when I do it is in a beta release which of course is going to be more prone to the occasional crash. I can safely say I can count the total crashes I have had on one hand and that is with a year and half of daily use.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

make me question if Big Box will ever work the way I would expect it to

We have no idea what your expectations are, you may or may not need to adjust your expectations depending on your hardware which you have not told us what you have.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

comparisons to File Explorer are simply because at a base level, they are very similar

They are not similar at all, this is an apples and oranges comparison. Like I said previously, explorer has low level access to the OS itself which is hugely helpful.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

not the amount that Big Box does, but that is irrelevant

This is extremely relevant.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

In my opinion, metadata (to be clear, I'm including images, videos, etc.) should have no bearing on performance at all

But it does have bearing.

On 5/18/2017 at 9:01 PM, BaseMale said:

Of course, it's only my opinion that the metadata should strictly be a visual nicety that has no impact on performance

@Jason Carr is the one qualified to answer this since this is his program and he knows the code. Without coding knowledge an opinion without knowledge is just a blind guess.

 

At this point I can only repeat what I have said in my performance guide and other performance related threads. Launchbox could always use performance boosts but given sufficient hardware, settings and proper computer maintenance Launchbox runs perfectly fine. With reasonably powerful hardware you can run a decent sized library with all the graphical bells and whistles. With lower end hardware you will have to adjust your settings accordingly, both in Launchbox and your system.

[BaseMale]

 

Quote

You cannot directly compare Launchbox to other fronteends, no other front end does everything that Launchbox does at the same time. Launchbox looks the best, is most customizable, easy to use, feature rich and rapidly developed. This does come at the cost of some performance though and no other front end offers all of these things in a single package.

This is exactly what your customers will do.  They are all front ends, all used for the same purpose.  If somebody has performance problems leading to a bad user experience, all those extra features are worthless.  I'm only trying to give a little bit of help in stating that I believe the performance problems many are seeing are caused by the loading of metadata.  I could be way off base, but the fact that performance changes with the view type directly points to the metadata, in some form, as the culprit.  If it's the searching and loading of that metadata, that is a very fixable problem.

Quote

I won't say people aren't experiencing crashes but I have had very few crashes ever and usually when I do it is in a beta release which of course is going to be more prone to the occasional crash. I can safely say I can count the total crashes I have had on one hand and that is with a year and half of daily use.

To be fair, you don't seem to have performance problems either.  That's why I said the performance problems seem to lead to crashes.  I've seen plenty of crashes when the UI starts to chug.  Maybe that's helpful to @Jason Carr

Quote

We have no idea what your expectations are, you may or may not need to adjust your expectations depending on your hardware which you have not told us what you have.

A smooth experience regardless of library size or the amount of metadata.  I don't expect the metadata to update instantly, that's ridiculous.  It will take time to load from disk.  I don't expect the loading of metadata to impact my ability to interact with the application.  I'm assuming this is what is going on.  I've tested on a variety of hardware, from a Core 2 Quad to an I7, 2GB ram up to 32GB, with varying GPUs.  They all experience hiccups at times.  Less so with the beefier computers.  None of them have issues with any other front end.  And again, it makes sense to compare because they are all used for the same thing.  The things Big Box does in the background don't matter to me when I'm simply trying to scroll through my games.  If a beefy computer is a requirement for Big Box, fine.  But I didn't see that stated anywhere when I purchased a license, and there was no trial available.

Quote

They are not similar at all, this is an apples and oranges comparison. Like I said previously, explorer has low level access to the OS itself which is hugely helpful.

This is extremely relevant.

But it does have bearing.

The metadata is fluff.  It adds visual beauty and some interesting info, but is ultimately unnecessary to the core purpose of a launcher.  I can't convince you of the similarities of a launcher with a file explorer so we'll have to agree to disagree

Quote

@Jason Carr is the one qualified to answer this since this is his program and he knows the code. Without coding knowledge an opinion without knowledge is just a blind guess.

I'm not sure if this was meant as a dig at me, or if you were simply stating you don't have any coding experience.

I'd like to get the performance problem figured out.  I didn't find anything constructive in all the threads stating it's the users PC or their library.  My PCs are tuned, well maintained, etc.  If the solution is that you need an octocore and the latest NVidia card fine (I'm exaggerating the specs here), it's your software.  But I hope you guys can find a way to make Big Box run at light speed on even the most limited of hardware.

Edited May 19, 2017 by BaseMale
Edited cause I gloriously screwed up the quoting lol...

[Lordmonkus]

It's not my software, it's Jasons. I'm just a volunteer and a user of the software that does not experience the issues that certain people like yourself are claiming. View my performance guide for my systems specs (both systems) and see what I run with no problems.

[syntax_X]

4 hours ago, BaseMale said:

  I think @syntax_X response above further strengthens my theory.  

Did you even force populate the cache for all images in BigBox yet? 
The bottom 2 options...

 

[SentaiBrad]

Well, to be fair, the cache exists to help performance and when it's running performance can be lower. Once it's done, it does severely help. It does cache as it goes, so you don't NEED to force cache, but only the platforms that are fully cached will run better. Past that, then we start having questions about if the user is on Beta, the type of Hardware, and the size of a users library.

It's also foolish to think that the size of a library doesn't contribute to lag. It most certainly will. Also, Windows Explorer does lag, and they are not comparable in any sense of the word. So, on my 8TB SATA3 drive, my MAME folder with a full non-merged and CHD set, lags when opening. So, it can, with a massive amount of data in a single folder. In a folder with a ton of icons, it can load faster too once it's cached (but a Windows cache is admittedly very small (you can increase it)).

No ones saying that people's issues aren't real, but the reason why they're real is a question because we've helped many many people with their issues by going through a few steps. It usually comes down to people don't understand how powerful their machine is, how much they've already loaded it up with and then try to run LaunchBox, or that more does take longer to load.

[Chris Kant]

On 19.5.2017 at 0:34 AM, Jason Carr said:

Honestly, @BaseMale, I am doing my best and always making performance improvements. You've given us no information on how to help you solve any performance issues here. My apologies if myself or any moderator has ever told you or anyone else that the performance couldn't be improved, because it always can, and I'm always working on it. However, with all due respect, it is very clear that you are talking completely out of your element here.

I also have performance issues with 55 systems and over 36.000 games in LB. Would it helpful to get an option for LB to use more than 4 GB RAM Cache for those guys who are having more GB Ram than some other dudes?

[damageinc86]

On 5/18/2017 at 10:28 PM, syntax_X said:

Did you even force populate the cache for all images in BigBox yet? 
The bottom 2 options...

 

would this take care of the problem of there being a black screen when you scroll really fast and then stop?  I have to hit the left or right key to bring up the letter selector, and then go up and down before the screen shows all the logos again.

[syntax_X]

Yes. It's something everyone should do once they have their roms and images in order.

Jason stated earlier that LB and BB cache as they go but I've always found this wipes on reset.

Do the force populate. It takes a long time but it's a one off.

Ensure your drive has sufficient space my cache is around 80gig.

[orac31]

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 0:53 AM, syntax_X said:

Make sure you Forced all images to CACHE in BigBox. I missed this step and was very impressed with the results. It will take a long time if you have a 30k+ library but after that buttery smooth.

Be sure to have enough disk space for the cache as it exceeds the size of your image library 

I wish I had tried this sooner what a diffrance

[syntax_X]

Yep. I felt the same.

The major issue here is big box is not creating a permanent cache from mere browsing. On each system restart any on-the-fly cache is wiped.

Devs seem to think otherwise.

Maybe in the next update we should have a periodic reminder setup for the cache based on uncached or some % variable. 

 

There is no other way for anyone to know to perform these actions and even their names are confusing.

 

Jason, This needs to be addressed to make it more accessible and easier to understand to newcomers and such.

I had the same issue earlier this year and needed your help and I am quite comfortable around computers.

Smooth metadata is a must for everyone.

Rename them to something that makes sense to the common man and make the option easily accessible in launchbox. 

 

A perfect example is Orac31

229 posts in AND STILL DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT FORCE POPULATE.

Edited May 21, 2017 by syntax_X

[Lordmonkus]

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