Saturn emulation - is it just crap

[PowerCooker]

Ive been messing with the Saturn emulator for awhile now and I just cannot seem to get this to work right no matter what I do. I have heard that emulating the Saturn was meant to be difficult and now basically abandoned but is emulating the sega Saturn really this difficult?

 

I have yabusa (spelled wrong I know but its 03.47am here right now) and no matter what options I put theres ALWAYS something wrong with whatever game I try and play in it. I try and play guardian heroes and it opens up in software mode and is slow, I change it to openGL and the screen then just goes all messed up. Speed it correct but backgrounds either mix together or I get pixelated mess at the top and bottom of the screen. I try and play die hard arcade and the game starts off ok with sound and everything.......yet once I have control of my character all sound and sfx have gone! even in openGl mode the games slow. This seems to follow for pretty much every other Saturn game I try to run............

 

Ive followed a lot of instructions about the cue.sheets and how most games from romhustler and other sites already have the cue sheets with them and that they should just work straight away yet I always find NOTHING works with the Saturn. Yet if I download something for my ps2 emulator or something else I usually don't have these problems

Theres only like 4 Saturn games I really want to play and I just cant because of issue A or issue B. I have heard that SSE works better but that its much more difficult to get to actually work right.

Was the Saturn just a nightmare to deal with or was it that the creators didn't care to much about the Saturn? it just doesn't feel as if its had as much effort put into it like other emulators have

[Lordmonkus]

The Saturn hardware was complicated, so much so that even the devs back then had a difficult time programming for it.

The complicated nature of the hardware combined with the severe lack of documentation made it very difficult to emulate.

Right now you have 3 choices in emulators, Yabause, SSF and Mednafen (stand alone and Retroarch core). Yabause is by far the worst of the 3 and Mednafen is the best but requires a relatively decent system to run it. SSF is in the middle and on the whole is pretty good but you do have to mount disk images with a virtual CD program such as Daemon Tools.

Here is a great video from a year ago about a guy who actually managed to crack the hardware and actually documented the hardware. Shortly after we got the Mednafen Saturn core and it runs a very large majority of the games for the system quite well.

 

[SentaiBrad]

Also, just because a game comes with a cue sheet, doesn't mean that it's a quality rip. Go with a Trurip, Redump or Darkwater Saturn set. That would be the best base you can have for games. Otherwise, Saturn emulation, like N64 and Xbox emulation, lack for various technical reasons. It wasn't done on purpose, it's just what the hardware engineer's chose for what they thought was the best at the time. It doesn't help that the Saturn wasn't even meant to do 3D, but added that capability at the last second, and then even 2D took a hit. Look at Symphony of the Night on Saturn vs PS1. Granted, I think they mentioned something about not having enough time to work on it, but yea. Mednafen Saturn in RetroArch is what I use, and the second Saturn tutorial I did. Yabause was first, and when Mednafen came out I quickly made v2. Yabause is very bad. I only chose it over SSF for the more simplistic approach, but Mednafen is simplistic in approach with a much higher bar of quality. Because of that bar of quality, poorly ripped games wont do. Sega did put a lot in to the system, they just did it in an ass backwards way that made it much more difficult than it needed to be. They also didn't think 3D would be on them so fast.

[DOS76]

Yet
Another
Broken
Ass
Unusable
Saturn
Emulator

[PowerCooker]

so does everyone just use Mednafen as the main Saturn emulator now? is it working 100% or should I expect issues like what yabusa has given me

[Lordmonkus]

I think most of us are using Mednafen or the Retroarch version of it for Saturn but like I said it does require a fairly decent CPU to drive it. It obviously doesn't need a top tier CPU like Cemu or even PCSX2 but you will need something in and around 3 GHz or higher to be safe.

Mednafen is not 100% because there are some games like Burning Rangers and games that use the Virtua Fighter engine that have some problems but it is far better than Yabause and SSF in terms of compatibility.

You say there are only 4 games you are interested in playing, perhaps if you post them we can tell you whether or not we have them and how well they work for us.

[mothergoose729]

4 hours ago, lordmonkus said:

I think most of us are using Mednafen or the Retroarch version of it for Saturn but like I said it does require a fairly decent CPU to drive it. It obviously doesn't need a top tier CPU like Cemu or even PCSX2 but you will need something in and around 3 GHz or higher to be safe.

Mednafen is not 100% because there are some games like Burning Rangers and games that use the Virtua Fighter engine that have some problems but it is far better than Yabause and SSF in terms of compatibility.

You say there are only 4 games you are interested in playing, perhaps if you post them we can tell you whether or not we have them and how well they work for us.

 The recommended spec is a 3.3ghz+ quad core haswell CPU or better, and notes that requirements for some games or forks might be higher.

From their website:

Mednafen's Sega Saturn emulation is extremely CPU intensive. The minimum recommended CPU is a quad-core Intel Haswell-microarchitecture CPU with a base frequency of >= 3.3GHz and a turbo frequency of >= 3.7GHz(e.g. Xeon E3-1226 v3), but note that this recommendation does not apply to any unofficial ports or forks, which may have higher CPU requirements.

https://mednafen.github.io/documentation/ss.html

I do not know if a quad core is recommended because the emulator can utilizing four threads, or if it is recommended just because its good to have a quad core just in case. At any rate, a modern 3.0ghz+ intel CPU, or AMD Ryzen 3.0ghz+ CPU,  is required. 

I have a 4.4ghz skylake CPU. I haven't spent a lot of time on the saturn yet, but so far I have gotten the following games to run on the standalone mednafen and in retroarch with the saturn core:

• Astal
• Daytona USA: Championship Circuit Edition
• Dragon Force
• Exhumed
• Fighters Mega Mix
• Guardian Heroes
• Nights Into Dreams
• Panzer Dragoon II
• Radiant Silver Gun
• Saturn Bomber Man
• Sega Ages Vol 1
• Sega Rally Championship
• Shining Force III
• Sonic R
• Street Fighter Alpha 3 (japanese)
• Virtua Cop
• Virtua Cop 2
• Virtua Fighter 2

I was not able to get Panzer Dragoon Saga working in the retroarch core, but it did work fine in the standalone version (might just be me on that one, not sure). 

Only the standalone version currently supports analog input, for the games that supported the 3D pad back in the day (Nights and Sega Rally in particular).  

Mednafen saturn only officially support NTSC games, which is north america and japanese releases. If you have a PAL game it is hit or miss. From my limited experience, the stand alone version has much better compatibility with PAL, but it is better to use NA games if they are available. I recommend the standalone version right now for better compatibility and analog support, and perhaps better performance or stability on the newer releases. 

[Lordmonkus]

Yes, the stand alone is the only one that supports analog controllers which is unfortunate for the RA core.

Panzer Dragoon Saga works perfectly fine for me, both stand alone and RA core.

I amy be wrong but I seem to recall a release where PAL games became supported but of course I could be mistaken. You can however use a program to patch a game to different region but that also may or may not work. I have used it with about a 50% success rate.

[PowerCooker]

i know this might sound stupid but whats the retroarche core thing you guys keep going on about? wasnt that meant to be something for the raspberry pi?

 

I only really want to play guardian heroes, die hard arcade, panzer dragoon 2 and fighters megamix and that's pretty much it......MAYBE virtua on 1

I only seem to have the yabussa emulator in my launchbox so is it possible to add the rtoarch thingy to it? if so then how? also how complicated is it to install?

 

all I SERIOUSLY want to play again is guardian heroes the most

[Charco]

https://youtu.be/rSQ8cEZlkKc

[Lordmonkus]

Retroarch is a multisystem emulator and uses "cores" for each system it emulates and those cores are built off of open source code of other emulators. The cores are basically offshoots of them. There is more to it but it gets really technical and people who argue whether or not Retroarch isn't an emulator are arguing semantics.

It is also cross platform so it's on Windows, Android devices and is the base of EmulatioStation for the raspberry pi.

Retroarch is not overly difficult to get setup and working but it can be a bit daunting when you aren't used to it. You can also use the Mednafen which is what the Retroarch Saturn core is built off of and has some advantages over the Retroarch version like analog stick controller support.

Keep in mind though that while Mednafen Saturn is the best way to emulate Saturn it is very picky about the quality of your game dumps and there are a lot of bad ones out there.

If you want to learn how to install Retroarch and get it up and running I did a written guide for that found here:

Brad also did a video on getting it setup in Launchbox here:

If you prefer Mednafen for Saturn I would suggest taking a look at a video I did.

 

[PowerCooker]

yeah I saw that Saturn video yesterday and it looked rather difficult as I need to download the emulator then x3 file and then notepad ++ etc etc

 

Isnt the Saturn retroarch emulator able to download on its own via launchbox or something? I really just want to play gaudrian heroes if I'm honest and it seems like a LOT of effort into getting it up and running. I can get it to load on yabusa but the second I fullscreen it the game looks a pixalated mess

does the xbox live version run off an emulator?

[Charco]

No, the Xbox Live version doesn't run on an emulator. Unfortunately emulating games requires some effort, if you don't want to try that I guess you're stuck I'm afraid.

[SentaiBrad]

It's also not that hard. If you find a Trurip, Redump or Darkwater rom set, it has everything you need. Just import, setup RetroArch or your emulator of choice and go. Sometimes you'll need command lines, or in the case of RA it requires command line, but yea. It will take some learning.

Edit: Yabausa is also the worst choice. Mednafen Saturn is generally the best and will probably provide better results. Make sure you're not stretching the image too. But don't forget, we're talking games that had really low resolutions being upscaled to 1080 vertically.

[DOS76]

Yeah this hobby does take time to get it set up right you have to decide if you want to invest the time or not.

[PowerCooker]

its just complicated that's all. I'm already working on tweeking the ps2 emulator, dreamcast emulator and various others to get things running perfectly.

Honestly all I seem to do since I got my launchbox 2tb hdd is TEST games to make sure there working and then eventually playing them

I'm actually at the point were I was gona ask Brad if anyone has done a compendium of each game and if your able to complete each game and what each games emulating issues are etc as ive been doing so many I think I could probably write a whole books worth on what has what issues, how to fix what issue etc etc

 

I just haven't seen it here before so was starting to think since I'm always doing this kinda stuff asking about it

Seeing the Saturn emulator tho and really just wanting to play 1 soul game.........it looks like a damn lot of effort.......its not like the ps2 emulator were you have classic after classic or the various other consoles. The Saturn in general was rather crap........I remember being so disappointed with it and then when I got a ps1 with tekken 2 I couldn't belive the difference in quality

[SentaiBrad]

From what I've been told by people, Hyperspin is much much worse to get up and running. I say that cause I haven't used it, but I know how easy LB is, and people keep telling me how much hell HS is in that regard, so I could only imagine how much worse it'd be. Saturn has a ton of great games too. There are plenty of YouTubers I could point to that do videos or hidden gem videos. Wood did one recently on our channel, MetalJesusRocks has done various Saturn videos, etc. There's lots of English patches coming out for Saturn now too.

There isn't a compendium for really anything. In a perfect world, when emulation is done well and perfected (NES and SNES), it's indistinguishable from the real console. Sure, emulators can bypass sprite limits and make games run smoother and better than they ever did, but when emulators are very much not done (any of the systems you've listed), it's much easier to look at it and be a bit displeased. I own a Saturn and I can barely play it, so it sucks that emulation isn't what it is.

[PowerCooker]

What I meant what for example when I look at ps2 emulator compatability list (pspx2 - ive spelled it wrong I know) it has a list but it doesn't say any work-arounds or the main various issues or if its possible to complete a game with those problems etc etc

 

Like for example - the issue I had recently with xenosaga 1 - it was cut up into 3 disks when its meant to be on 1. Not everyone knows this with the emulated version. I also found fixes for the bacl screen with rader issues which no one seems to have said anything about. The slowdown issue with the mechs on how to fix that or the general slowdown in places without a reason

Hence why I was thinking since I'm always messing with stuff if I should bother or not to wtite any of this down as a compendium considering if I knew what I know now 3 motnsh ago I would have had a much easier experience sliding into launchbox and running the various games etc

 

as for the Saturn.........trust me your wrong on this one....I was a MASSIVE sega fan. I want to all the conventions in the uk and met a lot of the guys who worked for sega USA/Jap/UK and was a huge sonic lover...........then the Saturn happened............then the 32x.............then they promised to fix things with the dreamcast and almost did but for some reason didn't release half the stuff that was ever made for it outside of japan. I just felt so let down with sega that even today I find it hard to forgive them, take sonic generations - utter crap after the first 3 levels. Sonic colours is a much better game yet even that's missing something to make it brilliant. Everything else sega has done since then has just been a massive disapointment

The only games I loved on the Saturn were virtua on, guardian heroes, darkstalkers. Daytona usa, panzer dragoon 2, burning rangers and that's pretty much it

[SentaiBrad]

What? Ok... Xenosaga IS 3 discs, it wasn't cut up at all...

Also yea, there are a ton of good games on Saturn.

[PowerCooker]

exactly yet there are afew sites were the game has been chopped up onto 3 seprate parts

 

the first disk ends when u try to leave the milians star system and it never loads anything past that but a black screen - I goggled and found afew people had this problem. Apparently the single iso disk is meant to be rare............yet I found it in about 4 minutes

HOWEVER loading from the save state still caused the same issues. I found I had to load from a normal ps2 save from before a certain event in order for the game to work