Nintendo Satellaview Platform

[nomisholman]

I was wondering if there was a reason why the "Nintendo Satellaview" is listed as a separate platform and not part of the "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" platform.

Since the SNES also covers Super Famicom and Sufami Turbo, I would assume the Satellaview belongs to this platform as it is an addon/extention for the Super Famicom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview

 

Forgive me if this has already been covered somewhere, but searching the forums didn't turn up everything.

[Styphelus]

By that definition, the Super Gameboy would also be part of the SNES and the 32X and Sega CD would be part of the Sega Genesis. People like keeping things separate. If you collect physical copies of SNES games, you don't include Satellaview games in your collection.

[nomisholman]

Thanks for you feedback Styphelus.

Yes I understand why people like keeping things separate, I guess I was just pointing out the inconsistency in the definition of a Platform.

Super Nintendo Entertainment System includes:

• SNES
• Super Famicom
• Sufami Turbo

But not Satellaview or as you pointed out Super Gameboy, which is merged with Nintendo Gameboy.  The reason I was asking is that I notice duplicate entries in the GamesDB for some Satellaview games.

eg: https://gamesdb.launchbox-app.com/games/results?id=Kaizou Choujin Shubibinman Zero

This game is listed under both SNES and Satellaview, although the SNES description explains that it is a Satellaview game.

I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other or not. I am just wanting to understand if there a reasoning behind the Platform definition currently or if it has been overlooked for now and may sometime in the future be merged, as has happened previously in this thread:

The main advantage of merging platforms in the database is to make it easier to handle duplicate entries.

As for the Sega examples this is also tricky to define what belongs together or not. Firstly, if Sega Megadrive and Sega Genesis are merged as one platform, why are there separate platforms for 32X and Sega CD. Secondly, for merging Sega CD and Sega Genesis, it seems to be the trend for console systems to split based on the media type, however by the computer systems. For example there is no "MS-DOS (Floppy Disk)" or "MS-DOS (CD-ROM)" only MS-DOS. For the MS-DOS platform a game released on floppy or CD would be handled as a "Version" of the game and not 2 different games on 2 different platforms.

At the end of the day, this is only an issue for cataloguing the games in the database, or the the "Scrape As" option used when setting up a platform in Launchbox, it is always possible to create a platform "Super Famicom" but with the "Scrape As" option set to "Super Nintendo Entertainment System".

Personally I'm more interested in consistency in the database, than a particular way of defining a platform, as Launchbox is so good it provides very easy ways of handling both.

Maybe in the future the database could support a platform hierarchy (eg an overall platform with sub-platform groups) to handle such cases.

[guyverjay]

Snes and famicom are the same system, PCE and TG16 are the same system, Sega megadrive, Nomad and Genesis are the same system thry all use the same games cartridges (if you bypass region lockout the games will all work on these systems no matter what countrr they are from), so I can see why they could/should be merged. However Mega/Sega CD andf 32x are addon systems with their own distinct libraries of games, you couldn't put a 32X cart in a genesis for example thus false equivalence. By your rationale the Master system should also be merged in with the genesis as you could use the converter to play master system games on it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by guyverjay
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[nomisholman]

I'm not an expert on Sega systems but I understand a lot of the Mega/Sega CD games were also release as Megadrive/Genesis, however the CD versions had small updates, eg better audio or extra levels, but in most cases they were pretty much the same game. For example Streets of Rage only had updated audio.

 

For most console systems it seems to be the convention to define the platform based on the media used CD/Cartridge, etc, however for Computer Systems the convention is based on the computer model not the media. (Amiga is an exception here)

For example the MS-DOS game The Secret of Monkey Island had a Floppy disk release with MIDI audio and a CD release with CD Audio, but in this case we classify this a 1 game on 1 platform with 2 versions.

For the Sega example it is 2 games on 2 platforms.

I suspect there is no real clear definition for how do define a platform/system, it's just the convention that has evolved until now. 

[guyverjay]

it has nothing to do with the media, Snes and Super Famicom have the same media but are seperated out. Tg16 and PCE have the same media, PCECD and TGCD have the same media, hell even the genesis and 32X have the same media i.e. cartridges etc. The reason why they are split is because they all have HUGE libraries of game (in the 100's) that were not localised for the west so to some its almost like a seperate system entirely.

Most of the Sega Cd library are NOT ports of Genesis games, the Streets of rage you just posted was a Sega Classics COMPLIATION disc of genesis games, they are not supposed to be updated or different from the genesis originals.

It didn't matter what media a dos game came on, it woud still work on Dos. However a Sega CD game requires a Sega CD, a genesis will not run the game.

 

Ports of the same game on different systems is irrelevant anyway as most third party games end up on multiple systems. What would you suggest? Merging the snes and genesis since they share a few hundred games?

Edited May 3, 2018 by guyverjay

[nomisholman]

Maybe I didn't explain what I meant clearly enough, I've been referring to how the LaunchBox GamesDB defines platforms. At the moment Snes and Super Famicom are considered the same platform but the Satellaview is a separate one.

I'm not personally trying to say either way if they should be separated or merged, I'm just saying it is inconsistent at the moment. I would expect either all separated or all merged. Personally I manage my roms with everything split, however for the database I

I accept your argument that the Sega CD library is mostly NOT ports, I also do agree with you there is a need to identify the different between a game for Genesis or Sega CD, but the Sega CD is an addon for the Genesis, not a standalone console. For me, I think of Sega CD as a sub-category of Sega Genesis, not a separate platform. 

What I was trying to say with the DOS analogy is if I have a PC without a CD-ROM I can't run a CD game, if I have a PC with CD-ROM I can, but the GamesDB only has an MS-DOS platform not a MS-DOS (CD-ROM) platform. If there is Genesis and Sega CD why isn't there MS-DOS and MS-DOS (CD-ROM).

What I think is missing is a way to group platforms.

My suggestion would be something like, the GamesDB could be updated to have 2 fields Platform and System, for example:

Platform : "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" (or maybe something like "Nintendo 4th Generation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_of_video_game_consoles)

• System: Super Nintendo Entertainment System
• System: Super Famicom
• System: Satellaview
• System: Bandai SuFami Turbo

A game entry could be linked to 1 or more Systems (within the same platform). This way a game released in both regions could have one entry in the database, but still be identifiable as both a Super Famicom and a SNES game. 

I do agree with the need to separate database entries for the same game on different manufactures, eg. 1 entry for SNES and 1 entry for Genesis.

I suspect this will never be changed and there will always be inconsistencies. I've just been curious as to how others decide what should be grouped together or not.

 

 

[fromlostdays]

I think you we're spot on when you said "this is just how it evolved". It isn't always clear cut, especially in retrospect ... oh my god I just realized retro comes from that word, I'm having a moment... anyway, at this point you also have to consider things like who is dumping the roms and what are they calling it? How are other popular websites  and affiliates like emumovies dealing with the naming etc. It's hundreds of thousands of video games, and the database is being built manually by volunteers. Ultimately though, I do agree consistency is paramount. There's a channel specifically for the LB database in Discord as well by the way. You can also make the case there. But... you should probably make the entire case first. Like here is a list, here is why.  

Edited May 5, 2018 by fromlostdays

[DOS76]

ah retro means backwards in Latin. Its a root word and applies to many more terms then retrospect. Here is my take on at least the sega stuff the boxes tell you why they are separate they say Sega CD Sega 32X and some even say Sega CD 32X because that is what they are you can't play those games on a genesis without the peripherals so yeah while the Genesis is the base system once you start using the add on you aren't playing a Genesis game you are playing a Sega CD the box even says so.

[nomisholman]

Ok, so after this discussion, I think I can finally answer my original question.

For the Launchbox GamesDB, the Satellaview is separated as it is an "addon" to the Famicom. As I understand now for consoles/handhelds, region versions of a platform are merged (typically to the US model), but addon's are considered a new platform.

There are a few small exceptions to this rule, eg. SuFami Turbo, Super GameBoy. But I guess this is due to the fact they are more difficult to define.

11 hours ago, fromlostdays said:

There's a channel specifically for the LB database in Discord as well by the way

Yes I knew about this, I've been reading it from time to time. I'm not really wanting to propose changes, more trying to understand how and why things came to be.

I also only realised today that I can created my own Platform Categories, thus allowing me to group the platforms how I want without the need to do anything in the database.

[Chris Kant]

It is more complicated for the arcade Plattform. All are together in arcade but we also have a lot of separate platforms as well

[Klopjero]

i find it sad that I get US boxes and other media for some of my japanese games.. I understand that  "it's all the same system" but it's annoying that you can't specify what region the scrape should be looking for.  when I scrape akumajou Dracula XX I don't want Castlevania X to be returned to my system.. but I suppose that's a different discussion.

[neil9000]

18 minutes ago, Klopjero said:

i find it sad that I get US boxes and other media for some of my japanese games.. I understand that  "it's all the same system" but it's annoying that you can't specify what region the scrape should be looking for.  when I scrape akumajou Dracula XX I don't want Castlevania X to be returned to my system.. but I suppose that's a different discussion.

You can use the region priorities in the options to specify your preferred region, but if we don't have those images in our database it will full back to other regions rather than giving you no images at all, which makes total sense to me.

[Klopjero]

18 minutes ago, neil9000 said:

You can use the region priorities in the options to specify your preferred region, but if we don't have those images in our database it will full back to other regions rather than giving you no images at all, which makes total sense to me.

Where do you set that priority ?

[neil9000]

Tools/Options/Region Priorities.

[Klopjero]

Would it be an idea to pose this question at the time of scrape?

[Freestate]

We should keep satellaview separate because there's a heavy amount of crap ( rom hacks or raritys) on satellaview releases, and a lot of snes games have satellaview releases also. To avoid failures when scrapping info and not overload the snes listing with all this stuff is good to keep separate. BUT! i'm also adding to the snes database FULL GAMES that are perfectly playable on snes with a flashcard because are FULL GAMES with digital release. I'm adding as DLC (Downloadable content) and creating custom covers for everyone that one a complete list of snes playable games.

For example, radical dreamers (satellaview release, full visual adventure), shockman zero (released past year on cartridge too), zelda bs and others.